Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848456928210653355

Of note:

The bullet found after moving the bodies of Abby and Libby was not easy to see. It was found using a blue light that showed a sparkle.

Sounds like this clarifies that the bullet was not found days after the murder, after the scene was released, as has been claimed and speculated on in the past.

JMO

And buried as some speculated. I just googled it and UV light to look for blood will also find bullets. Interesting!

 

[ClearAhead]

The D's point in the FM was that there was no CoC turned over to them.

I showed the receipt and return of the search warrant on his home to show that there apparently were no CoC filed with that State's exhibit, either.

Since the P has lined up CoC witnesses, I'm going to assume the paperwork was not done.

5.7.24 Richard Allen Motions Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

Why would the P’s CofC witness lead you to assume the paperwork was not done? What would be the point of it? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[Warwick7]

One thing that makes me really happy, if "happy" could be an emotion that I feel on this sad and emotional day, is that the crime scene techs were so experienced. We heard a lot in the intervening years from people who said "well the Delphi police likely didn't know how to analyse a crime scene" and for all we know that may be true, but the people who had to deal with this were, ultimately, very experienced at what they do, being part of ISP.

BAM!! I could agree more! And to PB that found them yet turned his body around to give the girls their dignity. Kudos!!!

 

[shonyakay]

I think they are probably going to try and suppress the word 'gun' which some have reported was said by one of the girls.

It was mentioned in RA's PCA too that one of the girls' mentions the word "gun" on LG's video.

 

[Warwick7]

Does that mean it was fired into the ground?

I know nothing about guns so forgive me if that's a dumb question.

jmo

No, my guess it was thrown out when the gun cooked the second time. I think just by stepping on it, it would be pressed into the ground.

 

[m00c0w]

The D's point in the FM was that there was no CoC turned over to them.

I showed the receipt and return of the search warrant on his home to show that there apparently were no CoC filed with that State's exhibit, either.

Since the P has lined up CoC witnesses, I'm going to assume the paperwork was not done.

5.7.24 Richard Allen Motions Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

Again, the search warrant return does not require chain of custody forms. It’s a list of property seized.

The fact that they have chain of custody witnesses actually implies they have intact forms… they are the people that handled the evidence. They will testify as to the accuracy of the paperwork. The defense would be moving to exclude the bullet if there was no chain of custody. That hasn’t happened.

All my opinion.

 

[shonyakay]

What law enforcement says during an interrogation holds 0 credibility with me, no offense.

Okay, but using deductive logic, the fact that one of the first crime scene photographer's on the scene says the bullet was there on February 14th corroborates what Holeman stated that they have had that bullet since February 14th, 2017.

 

[Warwick7]

unlike TV shows thousands of crimes occur every day where the perpetrator leaves not a speck of DNA. MOO

Yes...but...there's always Locard's Principle. Locard believed that no matter where a criminal goes or what a criminal does, he will leave something at the scene of the crime. We've seen it time and time again with these killers.

 

[shonyakay]

The defense is really sweating that bullet.

The DT doeth protest too much, methinks.

 

[statt#1]

Having read the past several pages, I'll weigh in and say that the bullet's extraction/ejection marks that tie it to RA's Sig Sauer would be visible to a person familiar with firearms but not to the point of being able to establish a connection to that particular firearm...that would be done through lab testing and likely microscopic analysis.

That the bullet was face down is random, though one could argue gravity could play a part in that, as the projectile is copper coated lead and heavier....this is a stretch of an argument though, but I put it out there as food for thought.

That the bullet could be from a LE firearm? For starters, this would have to assume that LE carry the same manufacturer of bullet as was found at the scene, which is easily identified. And if that were so, then the bullet would have to be the same grain, as there are 165 grain and 180 grain bullets available in .40 caliber ammunition, and possibly others, but those are the two most prevalent.

As far as the disturbed area at the end of the bridge, that makes all the sense in the world to me. There's a steep bank there, and it's very likely that the ground was disturbed where the killer and the girls went down the hill, they likely slipped/slid here and there on leaves/loose dirt, while traversing that bank down to the private lane....or there surely could have been a 'tussle' there of some sort too, maybe the girls were resisting at that point and were manhandled be BG.

 

[m00c0w]

I guess the scenario that makes the most sense to me, is that he stepped on it with his heal, which could have pushed the tip into the ground and lifted it into an almost vertical position.

It’s entirely possible that an investigator could have accidentally done that themselves, especially with leaves on the ground.

I find it most likely the ground had a lot of leaves, the round was dropped and landed tip down since it’s the heaviest part of the bullet. The thick layer of leaves held it tip down until it was stepped on in the scuffle.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes...but...there's always Locard's Principle. Locard believed that no matter where a criminal goes or what a criminal does, he will leave something at the scene of the crime. We've seen it time and time again with these killers.

He did leave plenty. He left a bullet. He left the characteristics of the bladed weapon in the wounds. He left footprints, even though they weren't clear enough for comparison. He left his image and voice on Libby's phone.

Locard's principle doesn't just apply to DNA.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Why would the P’s CofC witness lead you to assume the paperwork was not done? What would be the point of it? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

 

[Spartygirl]

You're correct about someone close to the defense team leaked crime scene photos. I believe that person went to trial for the crime. However, GF not associated with this at all. He is a highly respected advocate- moo

Delphi Murders: Indiana Man Arrested for Snapping Pics of Crime Scene Photos, Evidence

An Indiana man is behind bars after police say he disclosed sensitive information and evidence in connection with the 2017 Delphi murders. According to a 29-page court transcript released Friday, police arrested Mitchell Thomas Westerman on a conversion charge, after he allegedly leaked evidence...

www.crimeonline.com

Gavin Fish - Cold Case & True Crime Investigations

Gavin Fish is an award-winning journalist, documentarian, YouTuber, and champion for victims of violent crimes and their families.

gavinfish.com

BBM
Yes, IIRC , one went to trial and one committed suicide
IMO, It is horrific that it happened and that's on the Defense team.

 

[New Penny]

One big lie was them claiming Abby was pretty much cleaned of blood. I guess to insinuate a Cult saved her blood for rituals?

Come to find out the sweatshirt she was wearing was drenched in blood around the neck area where her fatal wound was inflicted.

Additionally, the ground beneath her

 

[shonyakay]

What law enforcement says during an interrogation holds 0 credibility with me, no offense.

But what a defense team claims in a Franks motion does? No offense.

 

[Warwick7]

That was added to the fact that he had mentioned to DD in his first statement that he was at the trails that day from 1:30 to 3:30 and saw the Three teen girls' at the Freedom Bridge when he arrived.
Those girls', whom LE talked to from the beginning of the investigation, identified the man they seen on the Freedom Bridge as "BG" from Libby's cellphone video.

RA = BG

Annnnnnd he made a point to say: "...there was one with long brown hair..."
What an explicit ponted thing to comment on.
Which, in my own opinion, led me to wonder originally I'd he had chosen them, in particular---her.
:0)

 

[Vern]

But what a defense team claims in a Franks motion does? No offense.

During the Three Day Hearings, it was also shown that the Defence actually DID receive their discovery of the many items they claimed not to have received. They also admitted they just might not have been able to find the items they believed they were 'missing'.

I recall all the complaining about how much was dropped on them and how it was not formatted in a manner they liked ... and the Prosecution responding that they had it in the very same manner.

IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if the Defence has the CoC documents within their disclosure ... and that they may form part of the discovery they erroneously claimed not to have at the time of their Franks' submissions.

 

[00stevenm]

The defense is really sweating that bullet.

The DT doeth protest too much, methinks.

Or are setting it up to make their point when they show what they believe is “junk science”.

 

[katydid23]

After lunch…

Defense attorney Brad Rozzi resumed questioning of Indiana State Police Sgt. Jason Page.

Page said it was not his job to determine the girls’ times of deaths when asked an opinion about when they may have happened.

“Do you know if a rape test kit was given?” Rozzi said.

“I would assume. I wasn’t there,” Page said.
I
Rozzi next asked about the sticks placed over the bodies. Page said he’s seen other death investigations where bodies had sticks placed over them. Page said, in Delphi, a human appeared to have placed the sticks over the girls’ bodies.

Rozzi also asked about the depth of Deer Creek, the size of the footprints, the blood around the area where the bodies were found, and about information on the hair found in Abby’s hand. Page responded, “You’re asking questions out of my knowledge.”

Page later explained his job — he was the 14th law enforcement officer to arrive at the crime scene — was to preserve the area through photography.

Prosecutors next called Indiana State Police Sgt. Duane Datzman, a crime scene technician, to the stand. He’s now retired, but was the CSI at the Delphi Murders crime scene. He has at least 20 years as a CSI, visiting hundreds of crime scenes.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

IMO, Rozzi knew that this man's job was to take crime scene photos before the forensics detectives arrive and move things here and there.

But he purposely peppers him with question after question, knowing he would not know anything about rape kits, DNA tests of the hair or the depth of the creek.

Rozzi was just trying to make this guy look incompetent and thus add to his narrative of an incompetent investigation.

I know it's his job to do so, but why not focus on REAL examples of incompetence instead of manufacturing some that are not real? It was not this officer's job to check the creek depth.