Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[gremlin444]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

Because if the defense won't stipulate to it pre-trial, they have to have all the chain of custody witnesses testify. Like the Alex Murdaugh trial--there was never a chain of custody question, yet the defense refused to stipulate to a single thing pretrial. Endless days were taken up with chain of custody witnesses.

"Prior to the jury returning to the court room after lunch, defense attorney Dick Harpootlian and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for the validity of using Paul Murdaugh’s cellphone as evidence without having every individual in the chain of custody testify the phone was not tampered with...[defense attorney]
Harpootlian insisted testimony must be given by each individual named in the phone’s chain of custody to validate the evidence for use in court."

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Warwick7]

Ok....now this changes a few things for me. Boom! Bam on this post! Sliding down the steep embankment would easily rough up some ground. Do I think Libby or both put up a fight here, yes I do.

Having read the past several pages, I'll weigh in and say that the bullet's extraction/ejection marks that tie it to RA's Sig Sauer would be visible to a person familiar with firearms but not to the point of being able to establish a connection to that particular firearm...that would be done through lab testing and likely microscopic analysis.

That the bullet was face down is random, though one could argue gravity could play a part in that, as the projectile is copper coated lead and heavier....this is a stretch of an argument though, but I put it out there as food for thought.

That the bullet could be from a LE firearm? For starters, this would have to assume that LE carry the same manufacturer of bullet as was found at the scene, which is easily identified. And if that were so, then the bullet would have to be the same grain, as there are 165 grain and 180 grain bullets available in .40 caliber ammunition, and possibly others, but those are the two most prevalent.

As far as the disturbed area at the end of the bridge, that makes all the sense in the world to me. There's a steep bank there, and it's very likely that the ground was disturbed where the killer and the girls went down the hill, they likely slipped/slid here and there on leaves/loose dirt, while traversing that bank down to the private lane....or there surely could have been a 'tussle' there of some sort too, maybe the girls were resisting at that point and were manhandled be BG.

 

[gremlin444]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

Because if the defense won't stipulate to it pre-trial, they have to have all the chain of custody witnesses testify. Like the Alex Murdaugh trial--there was never a chain of custody question, yet the defense refused to stipulate to a single thing pretrial. Endless days were taken up with chain of custody witnesses.

"Prior to the jury returning to the court room after lunch, defense attorney Dick Harpootlian and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for the validity of using Paul Murdaugh’s cellphone as evidence without having every individual in the chain of custody testify the phone was not tampered with...[defense attorney]
Harpootlian insisted testimony must be given by each individual named in the phone’s chain of custody to validate the evidence for use in court."

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

 

[shonyakay]

Are they saying the state has no photos of the tool marks on the bullet? I hope I'm mistaken in thinking that was what he said. Surely there are photos of the bullet taken when testing was done?

"Rozzi says that unspent bullet is face-down in the ground and the photograph investigators took at the scene doesn't show it in its entirety."

So there IS a photograph of the bullet at the scene afterall.

He's just trying to infer that because you can't see the marks on the bullet at the crime scene how are they sure that is the same bullet they tested.

Answer: Chain of Custody

The DT is sweating bullets (Pun intended) because that bullet is the State's Kryptonite.

 

[m00c0w]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

Because paperwork cannot testify as to who signed it. Individuals can testify about what they did, as corroborated by the paperwork. Else, there would be questions about the paperwork and why the people themselves weren’t testifying because anyone can sign a piece of paper. Getting people to testify under oath in court that they did a thing is a big deal.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Because if the defense won't stipulate to it pre-trial, they have to have all the chain of custody witnesses testify. Like the Alex Murdaugh trial--there was never a chain of custody question, yet the defense refused to stipulate to a single thing pretrial. Endless days were taken up with chain of custody witnesses.

"Prior to the jury returning to the court room after lunch, defense attorney Dick Harpootlian and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for the validity of using Paul Murdaugh’s cellphone as evidence without having every individual in the chain of custody testify the phone was not tampered with...[defense attorney]
Harpootlian insisted testimony must be given by each individual named in the phone’s chain of custody to validate the evidence for use in court."

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

I asked earlier if chain of custody rules were the same in every state and every county. I see people often comparing other states' cases to Delphi but I'm not sure if some of the issues are relative.

In the Indiana court trials I've watched, I've never seen a CoC issue brought up.

 

[ClearAhead]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

I’m guessing the P’s witness will speak on behalf of the paperwork.

Then the Cof C will be entered into evidence accordingly to prevent the D from alleging appropriate records were not kept and therefore the bullet doesn’t go toward proving RA’s guilt. JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

During the Three Day Hearings, it was also shown that the Defence actually DID receive their discovery of the many items they claimed not to have received. They also admitted they just might not have been able to find the items they believed they were 'missing'.

I recall all the complaining about how much was dropped on them and how it was not formatted in a manner they liked ... and the Prosecution responding that they had it in the very same manner.

IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if the Defence has the CoC documents within their disclosure ... and that they may form part of the discovery they erroneously claimed not to have at the time of their Franks' submissions.

Correct.
They were too busy writing their fantasy Frank Motions, I, 2, 3, 4 and 5 + how many more to actually read through the discovery documents from the Prosecutor.

 

[Spartygirl]

Because if the defense won't stipulate to it pre-trial, they have to have all the chain of custody witnesses testify. Like the Alex Murdaugh trial--there was never a chain of custody question, yet the defense refused to stipulate to a single thing pretrial. Endless days were taken up with chain of custody witnesses.

"Prior to the jury returning to the court room after lunch, defense attorney Dick Harpootlian and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for the validity of using Paul Murdaugh’s cellphone as evidence without having every individual in the chain of custody testify the phone was not tampered with...[defense attorney]
Harpootlian insisted testimony must be given by each individual named in the phone’s chain of custody to validate the evidence for use in court."

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

And still, AM was found GUILTY as he should have been.

Point taken, it does not matter IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I asked earlier if chain of custody rules were the same in every state and every county. I see people often comparing other states' cases to Delphi but I'm not sure if some of the issues are relative.

In the Indiana court trials I've watched, I've never seen a CoC issue brought up.

In the trials you watched perhaps nothing of significance was seized during a search, therefore CofC wasn’t an issue. I believe CofC procedures to be essentially universal throughout modern societies. JMO

 

[scapa]

Apologies if this has been posted already -- recap of Day 3 from WishTV in a clean vertical block for ease of reading. Works backwards chronologically:

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Apologies if this has been posted already -- recap of Day 3 from WishTV in a clean vertical block for ease of reading. Works backwards chronologically:

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

So according to this article a disturbance could be seen on the south side of the MHB going down the hill around midnight of the 13th and the clothed victim was wet upon discovery along with clothing items of one victim in the creek on the 14th.
I think it’s a logical conclusion that the girls crossed the creek under the control of RA before he killed them.
All my opinion. May the truth be evident to those in the seats of the jury soon.

 

[m00c0w]

The defense has noted that local law enforcement officers may carry the same Sig Sauer that Allen owned, trying to discredit a major piece of evidence allegedly tying Allen to the scene. But two ISP investigators said Monday that they didn't carry their weapons into the woods with them, and Page had a 9 mm gun, not a 40-caliber.

Crime scene investigators challenged over sticks, unspent round evidence

Lead attorney Andrew Baldwin flatly asserted it was a mistake not to immediately take into evidence the sticks that were strewn across the girls' bodies.

www.indystar.com

This is something I had wondered about with all of the speculation that maybe some law enforcement carried .40 S&W pistols… .40 S&W actually fell out of vogue in law enforcement many years ago because of the reduced magazine size, recoil, and added expense relative to 9mm. A lot of agencies (including FBI, who helped develop the cartridge) moved to 9mm as a result. I don’t personally find it likely that law enforcement present had firearms chambered in .40 S&W. This testimony seems to back that up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-moves-back-to-the-9mm-round-which-it-once-shunned-as-ineffective/2015/10/31/d7d0b994-7e80-11e5-afce-2afd1d3eb896_story.html

All my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

Holy cow, a 55 degree slope would be very difficult to even stand up. I really do wonder if the girls attempted to escape. Something had to have been going on. It’s unlikely such a steep slope would’ve been preselected. JMO

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

“Indiana State Police Trooper Brian Olehay takes the stand. He was called Feb. 14, 2017, to the crime scene, which he described as wooded and steep, with a 55 to 57 degree slope.”

Source: Measuring Angles

 

[Inthedetails]

Holy cow, a 55 degree slope would be very difficult to even stand up. I really do wonder if the girls attempted to escape. Something had to have been going on. It’s unlikely such a steep slope would’ve been preselected.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

“Indiana State Police Trooper Brian Olehay takes the stand. He was called Feb. 14, 2017, to the crime scene, which he described as wooded and steep, with a 55 to 57 degree slope.”

Source: Measuring Angles
View attachment 539582

Appreciate the protractor visual!

jmo

 

[New Penny]

I want the families to know that what he did to their daughters, what he did to their bodies, and that complete strangers are viewing especially LG's body nude, does not denigrate them. It denigrates RA, who I believe will be convicted of these crimes.

I just feel so bad for their families. Alleged murderer, but also a thief. Took their lives, stole their futures, robbed their families, and nowvthis: ripped privacy from all of them.

Want to articulate this a thousand times. They are sacred. What he did, profane. They remained untouched. The darkness, the depth, the depravity, it's all him.

He stole from every generation of their families...

And he sits there stone-faced.

Off with him.

My sympathy goes to the loved ones of Abby and Libby, two girls who should still be alive.

JMO

As Doug Carter stated in one of the press conferences “how you left them is not how they are now”

 

[gremlin444]

I asked earlier if chain of custody rules were the same in every state and every county. I see people often comparing other states' cases to Delphi but I'm not sure if some of the issues are relative.

In the Indiana court trials I've watched, I've never seen a CoC issue brought up.

If the state and defense agreed to stipulate to evidence's chain of custody in pre-trial hearings, it isn't presented and/or barely comes up during the trial. It's just part of the behind the scenes stuff before the show gets started.

Indiana lawyers and sites discussing Indiana's chain of command:

Chain of Custody | Criminal Defense Attorney | Jeff Cardella | Indianapolis Lawyer | Free Consultation

Questions about the Chain of Custody? Call for a free consultation. I have personally defended thousands of cases, teach criminal law at the IU School of Law, am a top rated attorney, and have practiced criminal defense my entire career. I practice primarily in Central Indiana, including...

cardellalawoffice.com

The prosecution can establish chain of custody through a variety of means, such as:

Chain of custody logs. These logs document the movement of evidence from the time it is collected to the time it is presented in court.

• Photographs and videos. These can be used to document the condition of the evidence at the time it was collected and stored.
• Witness testimony. Witnesses can testify about how the evidence was collected, handled, and stored.

Case Law Concerning the chain of Custody

The purpose of the rule is to prevent tampering, loss, or mistake with respect to an exhibit. The dangers posed by tampering, loss or mistake are that (1) similar or fungible items will be confused or commingled, and (2) exhibits will be altered in some manner relevant to and destructive of their evidentiary purpose and value. Graham v. State 255 N.E.2d 652 (Ind. 1970).

An exhibit is admissible if the evidence regarding its chain of custody strongly suggests the exact whereabouts of the evidence at all times. In substantiating a chain of custody, the State must give reasonable assurances that the property passed through various hands in an undisturbed condition. The State need not establish a perfect chain of custody whereby any gaps go to the weight of the evidence and not to admissibility. Culver v. State, 727 N.E.2d 1062 (Ind. 2000).

Chain of Custody Issues | Razumich & Associates

Evidence with chain of custody issues may not be allowed at trial. An experienced attorney will know when to object.

lawyersreadytofight.com

In Indiana, chain of custody problems won’t automatically mean that the prosecution won’t be allowed to introduce a piece of evidence at trial. The state is only required to provide reasonable assurances that the evidence has remained undisturbed from when it was originally collected. Small gaps in the chain of custody may not be enough to convince the court that the evidence is unreliable. But even in cases where the court allows the prosecution to use evidence that has chain of custody problems, your attorney can argue to the jury that the evidence should not be trusted because of those issues.

 

[Megnut]

Holy cow, a 55 degree slope would be very difficult to even stand up. I really do wonder if the girls attempted to escape. Something had to have been going on. It’s unlikely such a steep slope would’ve been preselected. JMO

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

“Indiana State Police Trooper Brian Olehay takes the stand. He was called Feb. 14, 2017, to the crime scene, which he described as wooded and steep, with a 55 to 57 degree slope.”

Source: Measuring Angles
View attachment 539582

Perhaps they did attempt to escape -- the rule, don't let them take you to the secondary location -- you might die trying but the second place is NEVER going to be better. And they were murdered, trying.

Chaotic scene, he lost control and regained it IMO by gross force. Rage.

Those poor girls.

They were safe and happy, carefree and expecting to have The Whole Rest of Their Lives in one moment, and in the next, they were in the very bowels of hell.

He'll get his.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

Nope, that came years and years later, through a non lawyer associate of the DT taking photos of discovery evidence at the law office and disseminating them through the internet.

MOO

Those photos were from the crime scene taken on February 14, 2017. Those clothing items were found first before their bodies were found around noon. The only way that man could have gotten them was from the MW leak whether directly or indirectly.
@MassGuy

 

[Warwick7]

Perhaps they did attempt to escape -- the rule, don't let them take you to the secondary location -- you might die trying but the second place is NEVER going to be better. And they were murdered, trying.

Chaotic scene, he lost control and regained it IMO by gross force. Rage.

Those poor girls.

They were safe and happy, carefree and expecting to have The Whole Rest of Their Lives in one moment, and in the next, they were in the very bowels of hell.

He'll get his.

JMO

My husband told me today, if anything happens to me, to CHARGE! at the guy. He said that it is possible I am going to die either way under the circumstances. He said fight for all I am worth. He said if those 2 girls would have whipped around and charged him, they could have pushed him over the train trussle. Even if they too went over, they wouldn't die at his hands