Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #202

[Niner]

I still have this motion open - *Motion for Order on Designated Defense Representatives - ??

Was that decided on & I missed it? TIA!

 

[mrjitty]

To my mind the defence's 'second location theory' has now flopped on to shore alongside their SODDI conspiracy. We now have testimony the phone's last connection before 4.30 am was at 10pm. IMO this rules out absolutely the idea that it was taken anywhere else before 10

So you can argue around the houses about what the phone was doing in a lower power state between 10 and 4.30am but it ultimately does not matter, because we know where it was at 10pm.

Or are the enthusiasts going to argue that the real killers came back at 10, turned it off, then came back yet again with the girls at 4.30am, did a brutal double murder, staged the crime scene, and turned the phone back on because reasons?

(all without any log event)

 

[INfisherman]

Ok so another question then - the photo of AW on the bridge that they didn’t find on her phone - wouldn’t that also have ended up on the cloud? Or how about the selfies in the car in route? Not moo - genuine questions. Ty.

Depends on if they’re normal pics like many adults take using the default device’s camera app or an app like Snapchat, which is used to take and share the photos with specified recipients, then once viewed by recipients, deleted. I think it’s probably safe to say Snapchat is widely used by teens/young adults. I’m not an expert, user or authority just have a general understanding of one of the apps use via research.

Feel free to research further on Snapchat, as the in-depth/ technical answer(s) varies depending on settings & number of recipients: https://help.snapchat.com/hc/en-us/articles/7012334940948-When-does-Snapchat-delete-Snaps-and-Chats

No ideas on if or how forensics experts may or may not be able to retrieve old Snaps/chats nor how users might avoid exposing illegal activities using said app. IIRC, KAK was able to wipe quite a bit of his filth from a device or two once LE was onto him - refer to the documented interview between him & 2 investigators at Grissom AFB for source.

All JMO YMMV

ETA location of KAK interview for clarity.

 

[BexLuth0r]

To my mind the defence's 'second location theory' has now flopped on to shore alongside their SODDI conspiracy. We now have testimony the phone's last connection before 4.30 am was at 10pm. IMO this rules out absolutely the idea that it was taken anywhere else before 10

So you can argue around the houses about what the phone was doing in a lower power state between 10 and 4.30am but it ultimately does not matter, because we know where it was at 10pm.

Or are the enthusiasts going to argue that the real killers came back at 10, turned it off, then came back yet again with the girls at 4.30am, did a brutal double murder, staged the crime scene, and turned the phone back on because reasons?

(all without any log event)

I'm very interested in the defences alibi for Richard Allen. It'll be interesting to see what comes out when he admits to being on the trail but then leaves before the murder. If he doesn't have his phone now, can that be proved? Has anyone seen him between the time the girls got murdered and can verify this?
Or was he still on the trail and is he still the unluckiest man in the world to be there?
Does throwing all these random theories that don't make sense discredit the defence to the jury?

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I can say with confidence that if someone had put the aeroplane mode on, they would have needed to unlock the phone first.

And last time someone tried to unlock the phone was 2:14pm, back when it still had connectivity.

'I don't know' | Investigator describes unexplained gap in data from Libby's phone | Day 5 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

>2:14:41 p.m. - Someone tries to unlock the phone

All MOO

(I will now stop talking about phones, and think about the girls. Justice for Abby and Libby.)

I think you should talk about phones more! Indeed I think I found a tech kindred spirit!

I really feel the defence and especially the likes of Bob Motta have been pushing an inference (phone must have been switched off) which is actually not supported by data that we know of.

Indeed it is the lack of that data which is the headache for Cecil. e.g if someone picked up the phone and switched it off, IMO you'd get activity on the phone logs like 'screen on' and 'off'. But he doesn't have that - so his inferences are based off the absence of such logs. There is a last access of the device. A last attempted access. Then no more movement.

So the lack of anything else happening leads him to conclude the phone was dropped or placed, then sits there turned on and losing power until 10pm when it connects for the 2nd to last time. In other words, the lack of human activity, but presence of autonomous activity leads to the inference that the phone was on and sitting forlornly in the forest for those 7 hours.

What happened between 10pm and 4.30pm Cecil cannot say precisely because nothing happened in that time that he can see. But he does know the phone was on and not moving until 10. So the most logical inference is it just sat there for another 6 and half hours with bingo battery.

What makes no sense at all IMO, is to claim someone turned it off at 10 and on at 6.30 because Cecil would have seen logs of that.

Maybe the defence will have an expert who can explain all this. Let's see.

MOO

 

[twall]

To my mind the defence's 'second location theory' has now flopped on to shore alongside their SODDI conspiracy. We now have testimony the phone's last connection before 4.30 am was at 10pm. IMO this rules out absolutely the idea that it was taken anywhere else before 10

So you can argue around the houses about what the phone was doing in a lower power state between 10 and 4.30am but it ultimately does not matter, because we know where it was at 10pm.

Or are the enthusiasts going to argue that the real killers came back at 10, turned it off, then came back yet again with the girls at 4.30am, did a brutal double murder, staged the crime scene, and turned the phone back on because reasons?

(all without any log event)

Cecil testified phone didn't power off at 10:32 so where was it at 10pm since "we" know? Don't include me in your we because i dont know where it was. JMO

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

Edited to correct link

 

[sunshineray]

Depends on if they’re normal pics like many adults take using the default device’s camera app or an app like Snapchat, which is used to take and share the photos with specified recipients, then once viewed by recipients, deleted. I think it’s probably safe to say Snapchat is widely used by teens/young adults. I’m not an expert, user or authority just have a general understanding of one of the apps use via research.

Feel free to research further on Snapchat, as the in-depth/ technical answer(s) varies depending on settings & number of recipients: https://help.snapchat.com/hc/en-us/articles/7012334940948-When-does-Snapchat-delete-Snaps-and-Chats

No ideas on if or how forensics experts may or may not be able to retrieve old Snaps/chats nor how users might avoid exposing illegal activities using said app. IIRC, KAK was able to wipe quite a bit of his filth from a device or two once LE was onto him - refer to the documented interview between him & 2 investigators for source.

All JMO YMMV

Google AI had this to say when I searched...

"why do some Snapchat photos saved in the app's data and others aren't"

Answer:

"Some Snapchat photos save in the app's data while others don't because of the "Memories" feature - if you actively choose to save a snap to your Memories, it will be stored within the Snapchat app, while any snap that isn't saved manually will typically be deleted from the server after it's viewed, meaning it won't be stored in your Snapchat data."

Maybe the reason the pic of Abby wasn't in the data was because they were crossing that decrepit and dangerous bridge and Libby didn't want the evidence of it on her phone, she didn't mark it to save in her Memories? The friend they were chatting with saved it to hers.Sounds like young teen thinking to me. MO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Day 10 in #Justice4Abby&Libby​

 

[roeashl1]

Well, I'm also wondering now what is being considered as 'devices' ... phones, tablets for sure. Laptops? iTunes (what are those called lol... iPods! Sorry ), fitness devices...smart TVs? That could all add up if we're being technical.

So, thinking back, myself and my ex, 2 kids. 4 phones for sure. Tablets, 2 of us but could be 4 in a different family. 2 or more iPods. Then we replace phones/tablets every year or two depending on your cell service specials. So 4 phones make 8 in a few years time. We never traded them in. A fitbit. (I have a Fitbit I'm wearing plus my two previous sitting in a drawer...what do I do with them??). I could see it adding up to 23 in several years depending on what they're looking at. I probably have 15 "devices" in my house currently, old and current, depending on what counts as a "device". I can see it.

More curious about devices active during the timeframe of the crime. That IMO tells a story. If some are missing, then why? Is RA's phone missing (sounds like it wasn't recovered), but for example his wife's from that timeframe is there? Why? ...is my question.

 

[girlhasnoname]

It’s crazy I just went to find the leaked text to check on that and can’t find it anywhere, I remember vividly not long ago being able to find it with a simple google search. I will take your word for the stabbed in the heart part but the point still stands that it was pretty common knowledge they were killed with a knife back in 2017

It was not common knowledge to the general public back in 2017. Was there some discussion from searchers who found the girls and maybe the family? Yes, probably. But that information was kept close to the vest by LE and the general public did not know for sure until the RL SW.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Cecil testified phone didn't power off at 10:32 so where was it at 10pm since "we" know? Don't include me in your we because i dont know where it was. JMO

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

Edited to correct link

The phone didn't move after 2:39pm, so we know, from his testimony, it was lying under a dead child at 10pm.

I'm sure it will all be much clearer when we finally hear RA telling the How of things in his staggering amount of confessions. Or maybe not though, since the phone was found. You'd think if RA knew about the phone he would have disabled it and taken it with him to dispose of. Maybe in all the mayhem he couldn't find the phone, heard DG calling out Libby's name and getting away was of the utmost importance, trumping everything else in his mind?

 

[INfisherman]

Google AI had this to say when I searched...

"why do some Snapchat photos saved in the app's data and others aren't"

Answer:

"Some Snapchat photos save in the app's data while others don't because of the "Memories" feature - if you actively choose to save a snap to your Memories, it will be stored within the Snapchat app, while any snap that isn't saved manually will typically be deleted from the server after it's viewed, meaning it won't be stored in your Snapchat data."

Maybe the reason the pic of Abby wasn't in the data was because they were crossing that decrepit and dangerous bridge and Libby didn't want the evidence of it on her phone, she didn't mark it to save in her Memories? The friend they were chatting with saved it to hers.Sounds like young teen thinking to me. MO

Thanks. I saw all that. I don’t quite trust AI responses & figured the link I provided to the source would be a good & logical gateway for further research & ability to see it wasn’t a straightforward singular answer, hence me mentioning settings as well. Admittedly, I was also being a bit lazy, given the time here (~100 mi south of Delphi).

I raised 2 boys who are now approaching 30 & I’m fully aware of how teens don’t want evidence of their "electronic discussions" potentially being found out by "nosy" parents. I was like that myself in some ways as a teen, minus the devices. Many kids hide parts their social lives from their parents, nothing new there.

 

[sunshineray]

I think it's not so much that he had so many accumulated, it's that he had so many accumulated but not the one he told DD he had that day on the trails. Wonder why? MO

 

[roeashl1]

Well, I'm also wondering now what is being considered as 'devices' ... phones, tablets for sure. Laptops? iTunes (what are those called lol... iPods! Sorry ), fitness devices...smart TVs? That could all add up if we're being technical.

So, thinking back, myself and my ex, 2 kids. 4 phones for sure. Tablets, 2 of us but could be 4 in a different family. 2 or more iPods. Then we replace phones/tablets every year or two depending on your cell service specials. So 4 phones make 8 in a few years time. We never traded them in. A fitbit. (I have a Fitbit I'm wearing plus my two previous sitting in a drawer...what do I do with them??). I could see it adding up to 23 in several years depending on what they're looking at. I probably have 15 "devices" in my house currently, old and current, depending on what counts as a "device". I can see it.

More curious about devices active during the timeframe of the crime. That IMO tells a story. If some are missing, then why? Is RA's phone missing (sounds like it wasn't recovered), but for example his wife's from that timeframe is there? Why? ...is my question.

They seized about 15 cellphones.
I think 2 computers, a few pagers, a garmin, an iPod, and at least one hard drive were mentioned in the warrant return.

At least 5 of the phones were flip phones, another 3 were specified as “old” then a few that were identified as like LG Verizon phone or Motorola smart phone with no more identifiers

the phones that were listed with model details were…
Samsung galaxy a42 releases on 11/11/2020
Google pixel 3a released 5/14/2019
LG cosmo ~ released in 2010 & 2011 version not specified
Nokia twist announced in 2009
Then another unspecified galaxy with a floral case

Seems like a lot of old phones. Pixel and galaxy in my mind were likely current phones based on arrest date. After those two most recent were over 10 years old and nothing identified that could have been his wife’s during that period like you mentioned …so doesn’t seem suspicious to me but idk

 

[girlhasnoname]

Where did the blood go then?

Per reports (LL being one) the pools of blood in the photos they saw the other day did not show enough blood on the ground.

The majority of Abby's blood from her neck wound was absorbed into the hoodie she was wearing and the ground under that. Per Ciscero's testimony from the 3 days of hearing held in late August.

MOO

 

[JAY CLUCK]

Day 10 in #Justice4Abby&Libby​

Hey I’m still on day 9! Hello over there.

Fastest ten days ever.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Excerpt of text of Richard Allen interview with LE from 2022:

RICHARD ALLEN: "...It’s over. I was perfectly fine. I was cooperating. I was going to give you my phone and then, you know, when you started reading all these documents … I feel like you guys think I done this. So, I’m done. You do what you need to do. It’s your job. I understand that, but you better (expletive) leave my reputation out of it. So, you do what you need to do, and then, like I said, when you do find this guy, I’ll expect the apology.’

TODAY/Fox59: "It was noted that Allen had a different phone in 2017, however, that investigators never found. He no longer had that phone when police came calling in 2022 after finding an old report placed Allen on the trails on Feb. 13, 2017, leading police to decide to take a closer look into the man."

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

Interesting! 23 devices seized, but no phone from that particular day-- a day RA himself viewed as so important that he evidently contacted LE to note his presence there.

I opined from the beginning that LE wouldn't find the phone RA provided to Dan Dulin when he confessed to being on the trails that day.

Another brick in the guilty wall.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Hey I’m still on day 9! Hello over there.

Fastest ten days ever.

They worked on Saturday IIRC.

 

[Tricia]

Andrea Burkharts live YT mentions she believes Abby could have been “washed” because her hands were very clean even though she would have taken longer to die. (As in didn’t grab her neck like Libby possibly did) I was thinking I had heard or read that Abby’s hands were inside the sweatshirt - not able to grab anything??

She makes some good points in her video. IMO

Andrea Burkhart is an approved source

 

[susane7]

I have 0 surprise that the phones didn't connect RA to Libby and Abby. I always trough it was no link between BG and the girls. I always thought and still believe this it is a simple "trail murder". In those crimes, the predador usually lurks the trails in different times waiting for the right victims and opportunity. It is the most difficult type of crime to solve. Usually this kind of crimes are solved by DNA or if there isn't DNA they go cold. Thankfully, RA boxed himself and I hope the jury understand that.