Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

[Rush4087]

Holy Crap! “It doesn’t matter. It’s over.”

After a 15-minute break, the trial resumed with Indiana State Police Trooper David Vito taking the stand. He’s served as an investigator in the Delphi Murders.

Vito was involved in searching the home of suspect Richard Allen on Oct. 13, 2022, and taking photos there that day and other days. Jurors were shown the photos.

Some photos showed a workbench at Allen’s home that contained knives and box cutters. Knives were also photographed in the master bedroom.

The photos included a gun and ammunition found in Allen’s home. A closet gun case was also photographed.

Coats, including a blue jacket, also were photographed.

Some items, including two dozen box-cutter knives, were taken to a state police post.

Vito, in response a question from defense attorney Jennifer Auger, said he was not aware of any connections to the murdered girls, Abby Williams and Libby German, from the blue jacket, his car, or the knives.

Next to testify was Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman. He supervised the search of Allen’s home on Oct. 13, 2022. He did an initial walk-through of the home, and then waited outside while police searched inside. He sat inside a car with Allen while the search was underway.

At one point while Holeman and Allen were in the car, the lieutenant asked if Allen wanted to fill out a form for items damaged in the search. Holeman said Allen responded, “It doesn’t matter. It’s over.”

Holeman then opened a box containing the gun found at Allen’s home. He gave it a quick check to assure it was safe to display to jurors.

On cross-examination, Holeman confirmed that Allen was a suspect at the time his home was searched. Holeman also noted that a bullet can be damaged when it’s handled for investigations.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

Some sloppy journalism on somebody’s part. Did Holeman say that Allen said: “why bother, it’s all over” or did Holeman say Allen said: “It doesn’t matter, it’s over”?

Splitting hairs some might say, but who knows, specific words and context matter.

You could interpret either or both as saying “it doesn't matter, I’m guilty” to “what difference does it make, they’ve already done the damage to my home.”

Jmo

 

[Lilbirdie]

Sorry if this is naive, but why didn’t they ask any of the witnesses whether RA looks like the guy they saw on the bridge? He’s sitting right there.

 

[iamshadow21]

Would someone mind clarifying…
“a round”
“a .40 caliber round”
“a cartridge”
“a spent cartridge”
“an unspent cartridge”
“a magazine”
“tool marking”
Thanks

Glossary of firearms terms - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A paper on tool marks, specifically to do with cartridge casings:

Identifying persistent and characteristic features in firearm tool marks on cartridge cases - PMC

Recent concerns about subjectivity in forensic firearm identification have motivated the development of algorithms to compare firearm tool marks that are imparted on ammunition and to generate quantitative measures of similarity. In this paper, we ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[otto]

Yes, I think the group of "3 or 4" girls can be almost ignored by the jury due to these discrepancies. The result was that this caught the attention of secretary/detectives in 2022 and reignited the investigation!
In MOO the prosecution does not need the 4 girls' eye witness to put RA on the bridge with Abby and Libby; his cell phone does that, from the WishTV updates I saw today (Day 6):

"Liggett says there’s no digital evidence that links Allen, but Allen was on his phone at that time on the bridge."

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

Richard Allen said he was checking online stock market updates and looking at fish from the first platform on the bridge between 1:30 and 3:30 on Feb 13, seven years ago. I guess there's a time stamp for that, even though his phone is missing.

Is that timestamp where he was when the female adult witness walked to the bridge, saw the man, turned around and returned to her car? I wonder whether we'll see some trail maps with time stamps!

I understand the accused then walked in the same direction as that witness. Libby and Abby walked past both the witness and the accused as they headed to the bridge. After the girls passed, the accused turned around and followed the girls onto the bridge.

Even though the defence theory that the girls were abducted, taken away in a vehicle, murdered and returned to the kidnapping location (vice versa) sounds absurd ... it might be the only explanation Richard Allen has to address the evidence that points directly to Richard Allen. Maybe his only defence is to say that when he left the Monon Trail park area, they were alive. They were with someone else between 2:13 pm or 3:57 pm, and 10 pm or 4 am.

 

[twall]

Delphi murders trial: Day 5
Good stuff, I watched last night. It was informative, they pack in a lot of info.

I watch and like them too. Here is their most recent recap of today.

Delphi Murders Trial Day 6 | Richard Allen said he saw 3 girls on trail

The Delphi murders trial shifted focus Thursday to the man accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German more than 7 1/2 years ago.

www.wthr.com

eta the Day 6 Daily Debrief

Sheriff admits Richard Allen doesn't match witness descriptions of 'bridge guy' | Day 6 of Delphi murders trial

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

Some sloppy journalism on somebody’s part. Did Holeman say that Allen said: “why bother, it’s all over” or did Holeman say Allen said: “It doesn’t matter, it’s over”?

Splitting hairs some might say, but who knows, specific words and context matter.

You could interpret either or both as saying “it doesn't matter, I’m guilty” to “what difference does it make, they’ve already done the damage to my home.”

Jmo

If filling out the form would help in getting the damage repaired I would say sure lets do it.

Whatever the actual statement was it appears RA didn't care about the damage at that point for some reason.

JMO.

 

[photographer4]

DBM - link may have changed the article since I first saw it. Will re-read and assess and re-post if it is how I first read it.

 

[Web_Sleuth]

Sorry if this is naive, but why didn’t they ask any of the witnesses whether RA looks like the guy they saw on the bridge? He’s sitting right there.

Because this could be a high risk question for either side - imagine if the answer was “yes” to the defense OR “no” to the prosecution.

IMO

 

[rebelchild]

Sorry if this is naive, but why didn’t they ask any of the witnesses whether RA looks like the guy they saw on the bridge? He’s sitting right there.

IMO .. RA doesn't look nothing like he did back in 2017. Plus he was over dressed for the weather, had a face covering and a hat. I doubt they could id the man sitting in front of them in court.

 

[CDB]

Would someone mind clarifying…
“a round”
“a .40 caliber round”
“a cartridge”
“a spent cartridge”
“an unspent cartridge”
“a magazine”
“tool marking”
Thanks

“a round”
A generic term used to describe a cartridge for a gun that in complete with bullet, case and propellant (gun powder.)
“a .40 caliber round”
This is letting you know the size of the bullet. Caliber is the inside dimension of the barrel. So in this case .40 inches.
“a cartridge” This is the more correct term describing ammunition that is complete with bullet casing, primer and propellant.
“a spent cartridge”
This is referring to the case after it has been fired. This will include a primer with a firing pin mark.
“an unspent cartridge”
Ammunition that has not been fired.
“a magazine”
This is the part of a gun that holds cartridges to be cycled into the firing chamber (technically battery.)
“tool marking”
Marks left on items when they come into contact with other objects. In this case they are referring to the marks the ejector and extraction parts of the gun will leave as ammunition is cycled out of the gun. These would be somewhat unique like finger prints and vary by wear and differences between guns.

For what it is worth I have 2 Smith and Wesson pistols in 40 cal, and I took new ammunition and cycled it through both guns and it was remarkable how different the marks left on the casings was. In my guns it was so noticeable I sorted some spent casings (about 100) and all but 5 you could tell which gun had fired them. The top of the magazine leaves marks as it pushes out of my guns. One has 2 lines the full length of the case the other strangely has one the full length of the case and the second only on half the case.

I took pics and was going to write a post and put up pics, but that discussion died down, so decided against it.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.”

 

[TristanP]

Thanks for this little detail. I've been saying for quite some time that ammo. brand found at the scene was unique, and that it matches in this instance isn't terribly surprising to me. Often with 'carry' ammo., a person uses the same brand for years.

I'd suspect more testimony relative to he ammo in the magazines, the chamber of the sig. etc. that were obtained during the search.

That ammo brand is hardly unique.

 

[otto]

Understand your surprise here, however I was also thinking that maybe "irl" Richard Allen doesn't really resemble Bridge Guy. Now we know that the photos were actually just grabs of a video which was upside-down and in which Bridge Guy was very small in the frame. MOO

Not so small in stature since Kline was considered to be a viable suspect.

 

[rez125]

Sorry if this is naive, but why didn’t they ask any of the witnesses whether RA looks like the guy they saw on the bridge? He’s sitting right there.

If they say no, State's case falls over.

If they say yes, defense is stuffed.

Too risky.

 

[Betty P]

There's no reason why RA could not have brought more than one Carhartt jacket. He may have gotten rid of the one with blood evidence on it and bought a new one in the same color. JMO,

He had seven years to get rid of any incriminating evidence, the cell phone, the jacket, the souvenirs from the crime scene, etc.

Once he saw the BG photos, he thought he was on their radar.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

This article has the PCA in it I wanted to reread it because i read earlier that Liggett said he didn't know anyone else saw the three juveniles until he saw the Richard Allen info that had gotten misplaced.

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

What is really striking to me, which I think I may have glossed over before is this puzzle being put together.

The three juveniles referred to in the PCA had taken photographs which placed them at certain spots on the trail at certain times. There was a picture taken at 12:43PM at the high bridge then another photo taken near the freedom bridge at 1:26PM. It says in the PCA:

"They walked the entirety of the trail and saw only one person-an adult male" it also says that another witness is seen in the Harvestore video arriving at 1:46P and leaving at 2:14P and she stated she only saw one adult male.

They walked the entire trail and saw only one person. Who could it be but Richard Allen? If someone else had arrived there wouldn't the second witness who arrived at 1:46P have seen that person? I don't think these people have any motive to lie or omit seeing someone else. I mean, only saw one other person. Not even just male. One other person. And the only other person who was there was Richard Allen.

 

[Spartygirl]

“don’t leave me up here” oh man. And Libby did not leave her. </3

NOPE-- They did NOT leave each other.
My heart breaks for this friendship between 2 young teenagers !!!

""Patty said no one could break the bond the two girls shared – even their killer.

“They stuck together. I don’t know exactly what happened out there that day, but I imagine there was probably an opportunity for one, or both, to separate and try to make a break different ways, but those girls loved each other,” said Patty. “They were good friends, neither one of them left each other’s side.”
“Just the day before all of this happened they had their equipment out playing catch and working on their batting in the backyard,” said Patty. “They will never get to play a single inning again.”

Because of their love for softball, a tournament has been organized in their memory.

Delphi: Who were Libby German and Abby Williams?

In a press conference on Thursday, Libertys grandfather gave the world a glimpse into the lives of the two slain Delphi teens.

www.wrtv.com

 

[MassGuy]

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

Some sloppy journalism on somebody’s part. Did Holeman say that Allen said: “why bother, it’s all over” or did Holeman say Allen said: “It doesn’t matter, it’s over”?

Splitting hairs some might say, but who knows, specific words and context matter.

You could interpret either or both as saying “it doesn't matter, I’m guilty” to “what difference does it make, they’ve already done the damage to my home.”

Jmo

This clears that up.

Holeman claims Allen responded by saying, “why bother, it’s all over.” Holeman claimed Allen repeated this line when later asked if he wanted to be taken to see his wife.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-misfiled-report-from-2017-put-allen-in-investigators-sights-in-2022/

 

[IceIce9]

Sounds like he usually backs his car in….to hide a license plate….or to make a quick getaway if needed?

In Indiana people with expired plates, or someone who has a warrant, or otherwise doesn’t want their plate seen will back in to hide their plate, since we don’t have front plates here.

It’s a common ruse that often attracts the attention of LE that they are trying to avoid.

 

[hooziewhutz]

Or because it is less risk of accidentally backing over any pedestrians or hitting a car when you exit? Moooo.

I have a very tight range of motion in my neck and shoulders. I often strategize parking in order to keep the swivel to a minimum; enough to safely drive but not to have to throw my arm up on the passenger seat for the full reverse "pose". So I look for opportunities to back in as much as possible, ie enough wiggle room to not hit anything like a crowded lot, or looking for a spot with an empty spot in front so's to be able to just pull forward into it, then out.