Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

[Boxer]

Apparently they didn't find any foreign male DNA at the crime scene. Not RA's not ANY male's. Just the hair that they say belonged to a female relative of one of the girls. Which makes sense with Abby borrowing the hoodie.

So whoever did it if it wasn't RA also didn't leave any DNA. MOO.

Exactly.

 

[Boxer]

Thank you. Found out via an article it essentially ended up being nothing & genrally speaking, after some chest puffing & melodramatic claims, Liggett’s original statement apparently held true. I noticed no apology came from Baldwin for calling him a liar, or at least one that was reported. He even reportedly handed him the printout of the entire interview & asked Liggett to find it & read it for the court. Wonder if little tidbits like that enter a juror’s thoughts if that sort of behavior is repeated frequently by attorneys?

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-tip-marked-cleared-found-while-cleaning-out-desk-put-richard-allen-on-the-radar-in-2022/

I would think the bloviating and libel would make a pretty negative impression. Trying to bully their way to a hung jury.

 

[mrjitty]

“a round”
A generic term used to describe a cartridge for a gun that in complete with bullet, case and propellant (gun powder.)
“a .40 caliber round”
This is letting you know the size of the bullet. Caliber is the inside dimension of the barrel. So in this case .40 inches.
“a cartridge” This is the more correct term describing ammunition that is complete with bullet casing, primer and propellant.
“a spent cartridge”
This is referring to the case after it has been fired. This will include a primer with a firing pin mark.
“an unspent cartridge”
Ammunition that has not been fired.
“a magazine”
This is the part of a gun that holds cartridges to be cycled into the firing chamber (technically battery.)
“tool marking”
Marks left on items when they come into contact with other objects. In this case they are referring to the marks the ejector and extraction parts of the gun will leave as ammunition is cycled out of the gun. These would be somewhat unique like finger prints and vary by wear and differences between guns.

For what it is worth I have 2 Smith and Wesson pistols in 40 cal, and I took new ammunition and cycled it through both guns and it was remarkable how different the marks left on the casings was. In my guns it was so noticeable I sorted some spent casings (about 100) and all but 5 you could tell which gun had fired them. The top of the magazine leaves marks as it pushes out of my guns. One has 2 lines the full length of the case the other strangely has one the full length of the case and the second only on half the case.

I took pics and was going to write a post and put up pics, but that discussion died down, so decided against it.

this illustrates why the analysis can’t be answered generically if that makes sense. one of your guns might be quite distinctive whereas the other is very similar to others of same make and model.

very useful info!

 

[Boxer]

It sounds like the question is about which direction the muddy bloody man was walking, not the witness. I'm sure the witness recalls whether she was driving to or from home. Does the defence want to portray the muddy bloody man as walking towards the cemetery path; towards the girls he just murdered, rather than towards his car at 3:57 pm on Feb 13, 2017?

A man walking a country road that didn't want to be recognized by an approaching car, upon hearing it, would simply turn around and walk the opposite way temporarily while the car passed.

 

[photographer4]

Did DD ask RA to give him the phone so a forensic examination could be done on it?

I dunno. Did he?

 

[Boxer]

Just curious, whose idea was it to be interviewed about murdered kids in the Save-a-Lot parking lot?

Home not ok. Police station not ok.

Save-a-Lot parking lot-- well, ok!

Dulin? Or someone else? OMGoodness, was that Rick's idea??

And by the way, the February 18 date on that interview with Dulin. It's a little late, the girls were murdered 13th-14th. "Rick" had seen unidentified girls of a young age out on those trails the very day young girls disappeared on the trails. Rick didn't get a good look at those girls he saw, he'd have no way to know those girls he saw didn't include the girls that turned up missing and then dead.

Where was Rick's sense of urgency?

Exactly!

 

[Seattle1]

It’s kinda funny how people think RA searching info on the case is some huge piece of evidence for guilt. I would almost guarantee that every person in this thread has more searches and info about Libby & Abby’s case than RA ever did!

I think it would be more notable if a resident of Delphi did not once search anything about an unsolved double murder in their town!

 

[INfisherman]

How do we know he wore boots? Have we had evidence presented to this effect? I may have missed it so actual question. Ty.

2. I don’t like that SC said she focused more on blood in last interview bc police focused more on it that time. I also don’t remember which witness helped with sketches but one said hers was 10/10 the guy she saw - and it was YbG. Was that her? I know the jury won’t get to hear about the sketches and I think that’s a shame given a state witness was very sure in YBG really resembling who she saw. She also said the man was in a tan coat. Then it changed to dark. I didn’t find her very credible. Moo.

3. I really could believe in a change of clothes but I think there would be likely transfer evidence from blood on footwear : hands / clothes etc. I just can’t believe nothing dna has tied to RA yet. That’s moo.

4. Lack of digital evidence to connect him to scene (so far, maybe more to come?) is also weird imo considering how much of our modern lives are lived online. All just moo.

I should have added my response was purely speculative & assuming the P timeline & P theory up to this point in the trial. Sincere apologies, I honestly thought I’d read somewhere he was wearing boots - maybe they were listed as items seized during the search at his home? Regardless, would you agree that boots are more difficult to remove than most other kind of typical footwear (tennis shoes, slip on shoes, etc) and a good choice to use for theorizing? If so, the boots example takes more time so my logic is to speculate on worst case scenario (hardest to remove). I mean, we’re not going to be wearing flip flops in February here in IN. You’re intelligent enough to see where I was going with my response - latex gloves of some sort might be needed as well. It could be done I’m sure.

Are you sure you’re not checking to see if I’m a seasoned criminal? I DO back my truck into parking places on occasion.

Honestly, for all we know he could have 8 layers of clothing on his torso & 3 layers under his jeans going off the BG photo. I would think layering would be the most logical way to get out of the clothes inconspicuously & get out of there. Changing clothes would take longer & draw more attention. When finished, the clothes, shoes, bags are burned offsite, as I suspect has been done regardless of who did it. I don’t know how premeditated this may have been. It’s quite possible the car was covered in plastic on the inside or leaf sized trash bags over the seats. The more I speculate, the more I’m going to look like a serial killer dude.

I’m honestly not overly invested in this case. I’m interested in it but not emotionally invested so much, especially as some seem to be. I feel for the girls, the families (both accused & victims). I’m mainly observing progress & how the disputed things hash out. Some responses from members demanding proof are on occasion a bit intimidating & over the top. Would be nice if folks would show a bit of leniency given how we have to wait for updates, corrections & check multiple sources in order to get the complete story straight. I’m withholding my opinions on your other points until I see how far the P takes this. Also being relatively new here & all. Not sure where my opinion counts as OK or where it strays off topic.

JMO

 

[Cedars]

Did DD ask RA to give him the phone so a forensic examination could be done on it?

No way, it wasn't at that level of questioning.

I believe it was Hidden True Crime this evening, they had very detailed notes on that testimony. DD was given a group of tips, and was tasked with the initial stage of following them up. Collect some information to verify and add details.

RA was not a suspect, just John Q Public who had submitted a tip.

Apparently, DD's report recommended further follow up/interview - I don't know why, but it seems to me obvious, since RA'd been on the trail, he should be questioned again as the investigation continued.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I dunno. Did he?

I think we would have heard if RA's 2017 phone was obtained by LE and had a forensic exam done.

Nope, it's long gone so no testing. JMO.

 

[Vern]

Lol I see what you did there and I agree!
----------------------------------------------------------
However, on cross examination, defense attorney Bradley Rozzi argued that previous fishing licenses had listed Allen’s height at 5′ 6″. Then it was 5′ 4″ in 2016 and changed back to 5′ 6″ in 2017.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-tip-marked-cleared-found-while-cleaning-out-desk-put-richard-allen-on-the-radar-in-2022/

I see that. So even RA doesn't know how tall he is and he's lived with himself for decades.

I'm not surprised then that any witness who passed him by for a fleeting instant in time with his slouchy walk, hat on, hood up, mask on the bottom half of his face, hands always in pockets (did he already have gloves on?), "walking with a purpose", head down, didn't manage to memorialize a height that even he can't manage to get right.

All IMO of course.

 

[mrjitty]

They said the man they passed, they later recognized as BG. They of course couldn’t recognize Allen as BG, because they didn’t see his face clearly (one said it was covered).

yep. they all identify Bridge Guy

only question in the case is was the Bridge Guy the 3 (4) juvenile witnesses saw RA?

timeline says yes.

there are no other girls that he could have met.

 

[Lululemonsleuth]

I think it would be more notable if a resident of Delphi did not once search anything about an unsolved double murder in their town!

I search all kinds of things. I’ve definitely searched this case a lot. My mom & half my family are from Indiana & I’ve searched all kinds of things about the MHB & all the potential suspects. Is there any reason they can’t get his phone provider to give any info about where he was? I heard they said there was only one tower there but then I saw something on lawyer lee’s YT live that RL sent a text while in the proximity of L&A’s bodies. I started following last year and I’m not really familiar with all the RL stuff.

 

[Lululemonsleuth]

Totally agree!

 

[INfisherman]

It sounds like the question is about which direction the muddy bloody man was walking, not the witness. I'm sure the witness recalls whether she was driving to or from home. Does the defence want to portray the muddy bloody man as walking towards the cemetery path; towards the girls he just murdered, rather than towards his car at 3:57 pm on Feb 13, 2017?

Hi otto,

The portion to which I was referring regarding 300N was Liggett’s testimony today concerning his interview with RA & what route he took to the trails. Sorry for late response - hard time keeping up! Let me know if you aren’t clear about that portion of the trial today.

<mod note - member requested that "Liggett" be changed to "Mullin.">

 

[Seattle1]

I search all kinds of things. I’ve definitely searched this case a lot. My mom & half my family are from Indiana & I’ve searched all kinds of things about the MHB & all the potential suspects. Is there any reason they can’t get his phone provider to give any info about where he was? I heard they said there was only one tower there but then I saw something on lawyer lee’s YT live that RL sent a text while in the proximity of L&A’s bodies. I started following last year and I’m not really familiar with all the RL stuff.

RL?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

No way, it wasn't at that level of questioning.

I believe it was Hidden True Crime this evening, they had very detailed notes on that testimony. DD was given a group of tips, and was tasked with the initial stage of following them up. Collect some information to verify and add details.

RA was not a suspect, just John Q Public who had submitted a tip.

Apparently, DD's report recommended further follow up/interview - I don't know why, but it seems to me obvious, since RA'd been on the trail, he should be questioned again as the investigation continued.

JMO

Correct. In regards to the phone Dulin only obtained limited information from RA's phone.

He did not videotape or take an audio recording of the conversation. He did ask for Allen's cell phone information including the 14 digit MEID (Mobile Equipment Identifier) number for the phone.

Nothing that would cause RA to feel that Dulin was going to find incriminating evidence on his phone. JMO.

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 6 | No other report of Allen on trails other than self-reported tip

Six witnesses took the stand on Thursday in Day 6 of the Delphi Murders Trial with testimony focusing on the early stages of the case against Richard Allen.

www.wrtv.com

 

[Boxer]

Q: has any testimony been given about whether they found anything in his car to tie him to the kids or the crime scene at all? Even after several years I would expect blood transfer to still be lingering. In carpet fibres, along seat belt, maybe IN the seat belt or in the door handle grooves (if any). I just don’t see how a “bloody” guy would get back into his car and NOT have transference! This is moo on the idea that there would still be transfer evidence likely in the car but also a genuine question. If there isn’t, then the State’s case is pretty weak (so far) imo.

A bloody guy would be a mostly dried bloody guy after walking from the CS to the old CPS.
In addition 5 years of a car's hot interior and various cleaning would be very unfavorable place for DNA to remain.

 

[Cedars]

Just to clarify in case there is confusion (maybe there isn't).

In 2022 RA said he didn't really notice people on the trail because he was watching stock prices on his phone as he walked.

LE already knew from tower dumps that his phone (that he used in 2017) hadn't pinged in the area that day.

My assumption is that means he either forgot, got mixed up, or wasn't telling the truth about watching stock tips. That's not a crime.

IMO the niggling thing is, why was he there, and yet his phone was not. He didn't say 'I often don't bring my phone when I go for walks', instead he brings attention to the phone that wasn't there.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Six: "It Doesn't Matter, It's Over"
So it wasn't during the Steve Mullin cross examination, it was during Tony Liggett's but Murder Sheet did have some jury reaction reports you might find interesting. 1:01:30 of the above episode

Kevin: And then Rozzi began the cross examination and he started talking about "Oh, when all this was going on, the sheriff's election was going on, hmm folks?" And Nick McLeland objected and there was such disgust in his voice when he said: "Is the defense contending that he made an arrest with no evidence to better his position in his election? With no evidence?" And there was such disgust in his voice when he said it. And it just occurred to me when he said it, this defense team for reasons I have never understood, I have never understood this, they have really been assiduously courting YouTubers- and not just any YouTubers, the most irresponsible, untrustworthy YouTubers imaginable. They've made them their base, they've made them their focus group. They love YouTubers. They court these YouTubers so much they actually have a YouTuber sitting in a defense seat.* So, they're not shy about it. But the problem is when you court these particular type of YouTubers, when you make these YouTubers your focus group, you think that the things they respond to is what other people will respond to. But when McLeland indicated his disgust with this notion that this arrest was somehow engineered because of the election, I looked over at the jury and they were responding to McLeland. And also keep in mind, we had just heard Kathy Shank discovered this tip on her late husband's birthday. And now they're saying- I guess she was part of a conspiracy too?
Aine: Oh, we're all part of the conspiracy at this point, Kevin.
Kevin: Because I mean like, if you think this was just cooked up because of the election then she has to be in on it. And I don't think that's an idea that would really go well in front of this jury from what I saw.

*Kevin is referring to Bob Motta here

i was going to post this same comment but i see Nick and KG covered it already!

What the hell is it happening in US cases i follow that an officer of the court simply accuses a public official of corruption without evidence?

This is outrageous and should result in disciplinary action against counsel IMO because it undermines trust in institutions. i would have the book thrown at me if i did this and frankly the local legal community would rightly be disgusted. you can’t just make stuff up in the form of outrageous accusations that you got from the fever swamps.

This isn’t vigorous defence. It’s just making up conspiracies. Officers of the Court weren’t allowed to do that when i went to school.

MOO