Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[m00c0w]

Excuse the dumb question, as I know very little about guns, but why wouldn't there be at least a fingerprint on the bullet casing? Are bullets in a cartridge loaded as a group (in a cartridge) into a gun? So if the bullet was wiped clean of prints at the factory and loaded into a cartridge (with other bullets) for purchase, only the cartridge would be likely to have the handler's prints? Do bullets come preloaded into cartridges?

Not an opinion or fact, but genuine questions because I don't understand.

There could be fingerprints and that’s how criminals are sometimes caught. However, if he loaded the firearm while wearing gloves, for instance, there would be no fingerprints to find.

JMO

 

[SluethinAway]

Excuse the dumb question, as I know very little about guns, but why wouldn't there be at least a fingerprint on the bullet casing? Are bullets in a cartridge loaded as a group (in a cartridge) into a gun? So if the bullet was wiped clean of prints at the factory and loaded into a cartridge (with other bullets) for purchase, only the cartridge would be likely to have the handler's prints? Do bullets come preloaded into cartridges?

Not an opinion or fact, but genuine questions because I don't understand.

There could be reasons shown here as to why they found no prints
Fingerprints can be found on unfired shell casings, but they are more difficult to find on fired casings:

• Likelihood of finding fingerprints
  Unfired casings are more likely to have usable fingerprints than fired casings. For example, in one study, 5 of 24 unfired cartridges had usable fingerprints, compared to only 1 of 24 fired cartridges.
  
  
  • Friction: Friction occurs when the casing is loaded into the magazine, enters the chamber, and is ejected from the chamber.
    
    
    
  • Temperature and combustion gases: The casing is exposed to high temperatures and combustion gases during the firing process.
    
    
• Handling
  Touching and handling the casing can leave less friction ridge detail.
  
  
  
• Pressure distortion
  Loading the casing into the magazine can increase the possibility of pressure distortion.

 

[Jade]

I was thinking about this last night -I wouldn't want to have LE come to my home either in a small town where two kids were murdered close to my home!! Especially not if everyone knows everyone, or they arrived in cop cars and or in uniform!! No way! Mooooo.

<modsnip - personalizing>

KA called LE to the home when RA was out of control so its not an issue for them, imo.


all imo

 

[TTF14]

KA called LE to the home when RA was out of control so its not an issue for them, imo.

Could you please provide a link about this? I'd like to read it.

Thank you.

 

[tlcya]

Could you please provide a link about this? I'd like to read it.

Thank you.

not the OP but linked here

Suspect Richard Allen involved in ‘domestic incident’ two years before Delphi murders

ETA article is unclear as to who called LE but it is a reasonable assumption that KA needed LEO assistance to get RA to the hospital so he could be evaluated.

 

[TTF14]

not the OP but linked here

Suspect Richard Allen involved in ‘domestic incident’ two years before Delphi murders

ETA article is unclear as to who called LE but ti is a reasonable assumption that KA needed LEO assistance to get RA to the hospital so he could be evaluated.

Thank you. I'll just note that this article doesn't say that RA was "out of control." We don't know what the nature of the incident was, per the article you linked. No charges were filed.

As always, JMO.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

To me it really does not matter when or where RA got a blue jacket - since the one LE found in his home did not have anything that connected him to the crime or the kids. Even if they could prove he had a dozen of them - if they can't find them or they find them but none have DNA evidence of the crime -they're all useless to LE imo

100% agree. And after following this case, I learned not to volunteer any information to LE without a lawyer present.

 

[MassGuy]

Excuse the dumb question, as I know very little about guns, but why wouldn't there be at least a fingerprint on the bullet casing? Are bullets in a cartridge loaded as a group (in a cartridge) into a gun? So if the bullet was wiped clean of prints at the factory and loaded into a cartridge (with other bullets) for purchase, only the cartridge would be likely to have the handler's prints? Do bullets come preloaded into cartridges?

Not an opinion or fact, but genuine questions because I don't understand.

They tried both fingerprints and DNA. It's a small surface area, and likely to get smudged regardless during the loading process. Touch DNA is possible and I'd imagine more common than obtaining a fingerprint, but even that is rare (they do have newer processes that have increased the ability to obtain that though). Don't forget too, this cartridge was exposed to the elements, and somewhat buried. That's not a good environment for either of those things.

Ammunition typically comes in a cardboard box. When you remove it, this is what it looks like. Then you slide that ammunition into a magazine (2 of them on the left), and slide a magazine into the handle of a gun.

That’s probably the only time that ammunition is touched by human hands (machines do all of the assembly at the factory).

 

[TTF14]

100% agree. And after following this case, I learned not to volunteer any information to LE without a lawyer present.

Girl, same. Never, unless I call LE to my home myself.

As always, JMO.

 

[dub]

It looks like she may have done both according to fox59’s reporting:

Oberg displayed images showing “areas of agreement” in marks. Her testimony included various photos of Allen’s gun, the marks in question and the gun’s ejector and extractor.

Oberg told the court she cycled and fired rounds from Allen’s gun so she could compare the marks to the cartridge found at the murder scene.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-forensic-firearms-examiner-discusses-toolmark-methodology-unspent-bullet-evidence/

Firing would make some sense as it would theoretically give a stronger impression/toolmark to more clearly see defects. It’s not like firing it would somehow make the markings match more closely, for some reason. They don’t know how hard the slide was racked to eject the original round, so they go full-send as a baseline.

If you gently step in some wet sand and stomp in some wet sand, the deformities in your shoe should generally match in both instances. They will likely be more apparent in the stomp version, though, which would allow you to look more closely for evidence of them in the lighter impression.

Let’s not forget she tested other firearms that did not match.

JMO

Sorry, I feel certain I’m missing something or reading this wrong, could you (or someone) please help this fool out?

Is what you’re saying that the force with which someone racks the slide actually affects the marks on it? If so, I would think the entire exercise of trying to match racked/ejected bullets goes totally out the window based on that variable alone.

And she fired the round found at the scene thru RA’s gun, and compared that with a different round fired through RA’s gun? Of course the fired rounds are going to match, they’re fired from the same gun!

Like, I fully believe RA is guilty and that the round found at the scene was his, but IF I have this right (which honestly I don’t think I do haha) then none of this bullet/cartridge business does anything for me.

 

[Warwick7]

I only own a Glock, but it functions the same way. The only way to eject a round is to do it intentionally. It can't just fall out, as it requires the slide to be pulled back manually; dropping it would not do it.

You rack the slide to put one in the chamber. However, if a round is already in the chamber, then it will be ejected during this process, and replace by one from the magazine.

Some people in court believed they heard him rack the slide during the "down the hill" period. If this is true, then he may have forgotten when he racked it again at the murder scene, likely in an act of intimidation.

He probably realized he did it at the time, but forgot to pick it up afterwards. It's also possible (it was buried I guess), that he just couldn't find it.

BBM
M00 but, maybe he was getting strong resistance or they were fighting back, so he had racked it again at the murder scene, likely in an act of intimidation.
If that is the case I hope one or both of them fought back!

 

[ClearAhead]

They “tested” other rounds for comparison to that one. The original evidentiary item stays the same, largely untouched. Photographs at high magnification are taken of the markings on the original round. The test cartridges are cycled or fired using the suspect weapon, and then similar types of photographs are taken of those. The photographs are compared to each other to see if specific markings, deformities, defects are present and consistent on both rounds after being fired.

Similar to fingerprints. You don’t put the collected fingerprint on someone’s finger to see if it matches.

JMO

“Photographs at high magnification”
While the jury was watching the presentation, I wonder if the markings on the round resemble a dented pan? I think not.
From this I think the jury will realize the D’s whining about not enough photographs taken of the bullet in the ground proving it wasn’t switched was only an act to mislead them, a ridiculous one at that. MOO

 

[TristanP]

A blue jacket was found but zero proof it’s the same one as over 5 years had passed before his arrest unfortunately. Just like how he had clearly gotten rid of his phone from 2017.

It was 5 years later. How is this supposed to be some indication of guilt? Do you still have your old phone from 5 years ago?

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Thank you. I'll just note that this article doesn't say that RA was "out of control." We don't know what the nature of the incident was, per the article you linked. No charges were filed.

As always, JMO.

It said he was drunk and the wife needed assistance getting him to the hospital. “Domestic incident” would simply mean that something happened inside of a home. IMO

 

[tlcya]

Sorry, I feel certain I’m missing something or reading this wrong, could you (or someone) please help this fool out?

Is what you’re saying that the force with which someone racks the slide actually affects the marks on it? If so, I would think the entire exercise of trying to match racked/ejected bullets goes totally out the window based on that variable alone.

And she fired the round found at the scene thru RA’s gun, and compared that with a different round fired through RA’s gun? Of course the fired rounds are going to match, they’re fired from the same gun!

Like, I fully believe RA is guilty and that the round found at the scene was his, but IF I have this right (which honestly I don’t think I do haha) then none of this bullet/cartridge business does anything for me.

she didn't fire the cartridge from the crime scene. she fired rounds of the same type of cartridge through RA's gun so she could compare the markings made on those rounds to the marks on the unfired round from the crime scene. at least that is how I understood her testimony to have been.

 

[loreet]

The investigation of these brutal murders of 2 amazing young girls infuriates me. I don’t so much have a problem with the crime scene misses, but I REALLY want to know who ‘cleared’ RA and when. Does he have a friend who protected him? It’s a small town and RA knew a lot of people from CVS, billiards, the bar. I don’t think we will know during this trial — the testimony and cross have moved right along past this file. But if I was a family member of AW of LG, or on the jury, the questions and misses around the earliest part of the investigation would haunt me.

 

[Salah11]

It was 5 years later. How is this supposed to be some indication of guilt? Do you still have your old phone from 5 years ago?

Yes because I dont have to dispose of evidence. I have every iPhone I have ever brought in my cupboard that are outdated.

That’s the whole point here he obviously hoarded electronics yet the one from that time period has mysteriously vanished.

 

[Elley Mae]

It was 5 years later. How is this supposed to be some indication of guilt? Do you still have your old phone from 5 years ago?

I do, and the blue carhartt I got like 15 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I only own a Glock, but it functions the same way. The only way to eject a round is to do it intentionally. It can't just fall out, as it requires the slide to be pulled back manually; dropping it would not do it.

You rack the slide to put one in the chamber. However, if a round is already in the chamber, then it will be ejected during this process, and replace by one from the magazine.

Some people in court believed they heard him rack the slide during the "down the hill" period. If this is true, then he may have forgotten when he racked it again at the murder scene, likely in an act of intimidation.

He probably realized he did it at the time, but forgot to pick it up afterwards. It's also possible (it was buried I guess), that he just couldn't find it.

Point down, and into the ground. How deep was it in there again?

 

[MassGuy]

Yes because I dont have to dispose of evidence. I have every iPhone I have ever brought in my cupboard that are outdated.

That’s the whole point here he obviously hoarded electronics yet the one from that time period has mysteriously vanished.

Key questions. What did he say happened to that phone? When did he get rid of that phone? The latter will have an answer I'm sure, as his provider would know.