Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[KSwizzle]

I cannot testify to the jacket or bullet, but certain corrosions can take years to develop on aluminum. How long should we wait for these test results? There are also different types of corrosion so more tests. Also, corrosion tests are destructive & it’s already been stated the round that was found needs to be kept intact for the tool markings as proof (the master template). Had they tested other rounds, they’d probably be scrutinized for doing so in that it’s "not the exact round".

To be clear, I’m trying to remain neutral because we’re not even half way through the trial. They’ve already described how the bullet was found in the ground & photos were provided, that’s part of chain of custody. The P doesn’t need proof with any doubt, just reasonable doubt. Evidently they feel based on their experience, they have that. Prior case law involving ballistics would also set precedent as far as how much is needed.

I respect that you’re an engineer, but if you’ve ever been involved in durability testing, it’s usually never performed until complete failure, at least not for every test & in a manufacturing sense. That is unreasonable & not cost effective.

You’re not necessarily wrong but your expectations are more than what is needed in this case.

JMO

For sure, and I'm just musing and thinking of things that I would try to do if I was going to be called as an expert witness and what I think a jury of mostly laypeople would be wanting to or interested to know so that they would be confident that what I did was sound and logical

You never know with juries

 

[steeltowngirl]

Hope no more juror losses.

Yes, food poisoning crossed my mind. They all dine together. I hope it’s not that - they will all be sick.
Most likely a family emergency.

jmo

 

[MassGuy]

Jurors asked Oberg several questions including if disassembling a gun could change the tool marks. Obert said this would not change the markings.

Earlier this week, Gull prohibited the defense from calling a metallurgist to challenge the toolmark identification process.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-forensic-firearms-examiner-discusses-toolmark-methodology-unspent-bullet-evidence/

 

[m00c0w]

If today did go as well for the protection as it seems, I wonder how the defense plans to combat this. Their cross appears to have been ineffectual, and we know Gull previously ruled that the expert they planned to call cannot testify, as he was not a firearms expert. He was a strange choice to begin with, but I wonder if they had to go that route because they couldn't find a firearms expert to combat the state's expert.

They've got to do something, but I don't know what they can do at this stage.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-judge-rules-defense-teams-metallurgist-cannot-testify/

I imagine most of the defense’s time will be squandered on lengthy and repetitive offers of proof.

JMO

 

[TristanP]

@localguydonnie

Going through #Delphi trial pool notes that just came in before 4 o’clock…

Allen’s attorney Brad Rozzi during cross examination of Melissa Oberg, expert who pinned Allen’s gun as the source of the cartridge found near girl’s bodies…
R: An unspent round and fired round are two different things.
Oberg: They’re all loaded into a firearm the same way. Only difference is pressure. Ejector mark is ejector whether it’s fired or cycled. Firing process could use more research, but not the tool marking process
R: Could have been cycled through other firearm?
Oberg: It is possible.

Going through more notes (email compression makes the notes very tough to read)…
R: You can’t say with any certainty where it (new cartridge used in testing) came from before you got it?
Oberg: No.
R: You don’t have a photo of that round in your 14-page report.
Oberg: No, it was in my original notes.They talk about other rounds used in testing. Oberg chose to use the test fired round because it marked better than cycled rounds.
R: (Those) aren’t the same.
Oberg: “I don’t consider them different. They just didn’t mark as well.”•I think she’s referring to the test rounds that were cycled but again, pool notes are hard to read…



Rozzi continues to stress how the cycled crime scene cartridge and the test fired cartridge are not the same thing.

Oberg: “I will keep repeating it’s the same way (loading cartridge), it just has a different pressure.”They continue to talk about specific extractors, gun builds, the condition of Allen’s gun, the tool marking verification process, who would make the final call if there were differing opinions.
Rozzi asked if Allen’s gun condition could produce different markings in 2017 and 2022.
Oberg responded with “can’t say. Should be similarities.”
R: Fair for jury to draw its own conclusions based on photos of the test fired round?
Oberg: Yes.
State Objected.
Judge sustained…


When going back to the discussion of expert disagreements and verification and who would have final say over analysis…
R: “At the end of the day, it’s subjective.”
Oberg: “I don’t know how you objectively measure subjectivity.”
Oberg said she’s never had someone disagree with her analysis.

Court back in session. Will update this information once more is received.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849912071561093217

So her testimony is that a cycled round and a fired round are both equally able to be identified as being in one gun. And the only difference is a pin mark from firing but everything else is the same?

I don’t understand why there has been any discussion about this at all if the science is exactly the same and has been known for decades.

 

[m00c0w]

So her testimony is that a cycled round and a fired round are both equally able to be identified as being in one gun. And the only difference is a pin mark from firing but everything else is the same?

I don’t understand why there has been any discussion about this at all if the science is exactly the same and has been known for decades.

BBM

Because that’s what defense attorneys are paid to do?

 

[TristanP]

If today did go as well for the prosecution as it seems, I wonder how the defense plans to combat this. Their cross appears to have been ineffectual, and we know Gull previously ruled that the expert they planned to call cannot testify, as he was not a firearms expert. He was a strange choice to begin with, but I wonder if they had to go that route because they couldn't find a firearms expert to combat the state's expert.

They've got to do something, but I don't know what they can do at this stage.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-judge-rules-defense-teams-metallurgist-cannot-testify/

When the judge forbids you to use an expert, it certainly helps the other side.

 

[Inthedetails]

They've got to do something, but I don't know what they can do at this stage.

snipped

Defense strategy prediction: Muddy the water and splash it all over the place. Then, hand the conviction over to the appeals process.

jmo

 

[photographer4]

There are many people who don’t care that his mental state and medications received could have greatly influenced his “confessions”. As long as he said the words, that’s all that matters to them.

What a way of reminding the jury they never heard that sound in the video played for them…

I'm surprised this wasn't considered prejudicial to the jury - him doing this in court for the jurors. MOO

 

[Kudzuu]

Oh man, she had some great retorts there. This one is my favorite:

“I don’t know how you objectively measure subjectivity.”

Just beautiful

It takes a strong woman too stand up to a male bully! We've seen a couple already!

 

[mrjitty]

I imagine most of the defense’s time will be squandered on lengthy and repetitive offers of proof.

JMO

it’s interesting now that the SODDI don’t even help them with their main evidential problems.

 

[Vaderman]

Yes, food poisoning crossed my mind. They all dine together. I hope it’s not that - they will all be sick.
Most likely a family emergency.

jmo

Hopefully not a discreet Odinist plot to wipe them out one-by-one

 

[MassGuy]

When the judge forbids you to use an expert, it certainly helps the other side.

He’s not an expert in firearm toolmarks. Had they called an appropriate expert, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Were there attorneys out there arguing he should have been allowed?

Just looking at his credentials, if there was a science involving dog bite mark analysis, it would be like the defense calling a dog breeder.

 

[INfisherman]

The only thing she could have possibly added to each response was "moron" or "dumba**".

 

[photographer4]

Yes, food poisoning crossed my mind. They all dine together. I hope it’s not that - they will all be sick.
Most likely a family emergency.

jmo

Or maybe they just had had enough of the sequestration, the long arduous days in the court room in uncomfortable chairs, lack of access to loved ones, and their device(s), JG's laws over what is allowed on TV etc and simply said to h*ll with this, I'm out? Does anything preclude a juror from just walking out? I've never heard of it happening so its a serious question.

 

[Elley Mae]

Pretty minor considering at the Murdaugh trial, defense attorney Harpootlian, while handling a rifle, pointed it at the prosecution table, smiled and said, “tempting”…or something like that.
Inappropriate to say the least.

I remember it well, it was that.

 

[MiniMoo]

He’s not an expert in firearm toolmarks. Had they called an appropriate expert, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Were there attorneys out there arguing he should have been allowed?

Just looking at his credentials, if there was a science involving dog bite mark analysis, it would be like the defense calling a dog breeder.

Who was supposed to be the expert?
Going to look them up.

Makes sense to have a bullet expert.

JAQ - Just asking a question.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

To be fair, yesterday Holeman took out the gun to show it to the jury for the first time, explained that he needed to check to make sure it was completely empty before it was further handled, and he proceeded to rack it twice. Murder Sheet said in last nights episode that in the quiet courtroom it was really loud and unnerving, given the theory that racking it was how the murderer threatened the girls into compliance.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Six: "It Doesn't Matter, It's Over"

We discuss the sixth day of Richard Allen's trial. We saw Allen's knives and boxcutters and heard more from the woman who uncovered the tip that led to this...

murdersheetpodcast.com

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

"Holeman then opened a box containing the gun found at Allen’s home. He gave it a quick check to assure it was safe before displaying it to jurors."

I think the Judge probably stopped Rozzi from handling the gun because he is not a firearms expert in any way and could not convince JG he knew how to safely handle it.
Holeman, as a LE officer, was deemed to know what he was doing.

 

[Inthedetails]

It takes a strong woman too stand up to a male bully! We've seen a couple already!

It's perfect - and an example to follow.

jmo

 

[m00c0w]

When the judge forbids you to use an expert, it certainly helps the other side.

Perhaps they should have acquired a relevant expert, then. One that had not just been excluded from testifying in another case where the defendant was represented by Baldwin as well, on similar grounds…

JMO