Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #206

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
Link to post with all threads 1 - 98 (Courtesy of margarita25)
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Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
Hidden True Crime
Lawyer Lee
Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[Niner]

Saturday, October 26th:
*Trial continues (Day 8) (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Held without bond.
Amended charges (1/18/24/granted 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial [8/1/24]. Carroll County
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon.
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency. 3 Alternates left (no count). Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-6 (10/18-10/24/24) reference post #889 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-203.726949/page-45
10/24/24 Docket update: Judge Gull reportedly granted former Carroll County Prosecutor Rob Ives’ Motion to Quash Subpoena. According to Ives, Allen had subpoenaed him w/ Ives contending any testimony is protected by work product and he is not a fact witness. The Indiana Supreme Court has stated that a prosecutor may not be called as a defense witness unless the testimony sought is required by a compelling and legitimate need. Matheney v. State, 583 NE2d 1202, 1206 (Ind. 1992). Where evidence can be obtained from other sources and absent extraordinary circumstances, an attorney who participates in a case should not be called. See link at: _Motion to Quash Subpoena.pdf
10/25/24 Friday, Trial Day 7: State witnesses: Melissa Oberg. [Worked for the Indiana State Police as a forensic firearm examiner & resigned in 2013. Works for a clinical asset health management company now. She tells the jury she is an operations data analyst for that company. Did analysis on the cartridge on 2/17/17. She saw three possible ejector marks & three possible extractor marks on the cartridge & showed the jury a powerpoint presentation that came to the conclusion that the gun collected from Allen’s home in 2022 had indeed cycled the cartridge that was found near the bodies of Libby & Abby.
For more info see post #4 (Day 7 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...hi-murders-richard-allen-arrested-204.727056/
Only 15 of the 16 jurors came back into the courtroom after the lunch break. One juror was dismissed. That leaves 12 jurors & three alternate jurors. Dismissed juror has a family emergency.
Trial continues on Saturday, 10/26/24 @ 9am.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Continue the discussion here after reading the above Admin/Mod notes!

 

[browneyes]

Yemelyan said:
“Blood spatter expert Major Pat Cicero testified Libby likely cried after sustaining wounds to her neck. He noted a streak of moisture and blood running from the corner of her eye to her ear.”

The above was on the last thread. My heart broke even more reading that. Those poor sweet girls.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Have we heard about Google location history? The search didn’t return his 2017 phone, but if RA happened to be logged in to a Google account, his location would have been stored to a timeline on their servers.

I suppose we’d have heard about it already if it were available. Had he really left at 1:30 pm, defense would have screamed location history from the rooftops. A guilty man would have deleted it, if he had it enabled at all.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone. Don't forget to vote in our Websleuths Poll.
CLICK HERE

 

[gremlin444]

T

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205'

Oct 28, 2024

Uh oh——this is making me wonder if perhaps, being outdoors, he did in fact ejaculate, a bit removed from the girls, and covered it up sufficiently?

IMO there had to be a sexual component to this crime or they wouldn’t be unclothed, in whole or partially.

Still I remain grateful that at the least, he didn’t defile the girls’ actual bodies this way.

Not that that gives much solace, since of course they suffered and died in such a horrific fashion.

JMO and sorrowful speculation.

He could have ejaculated inside them while wearing a condom and left no trace.

All that can be said...

• TristanP

• 

I agree with someone else's comment that even using a condom, they are often able to detect trace elements left behind by the condom's dry (unlubricated kind) or wet (lubricated kind) coating.

To find rapists, Candice Bridge examines what condoms leave behind

The forensic scientist is cataloging lubricants as a way to identify sexual predators

cen.acs.org

And also....I hate saying it, but I will.

We are talking about 13 and 14 year old girls who very likely had never been sexually active. A grown man forcing himself on a young teen virgin is going to cause inflammation, abrasions, etc. that a ME would detect. IMOO, MOO, and all that stuff.

Ugh, now I need to go wash my brain.

 

[MassGuy]

Have we heard about Google location history? The search didn’t return his 2017 phone, but if RA happened to be logged in to a Google account, his location would have been stored to a timeline on their servers.

I suppose we’d have heard about it already if it were available. Had he really left at 1:30 pm, defense would have screamed location history from the rooftops. A guilty man would have deleted it, if he had it enabled at all.

Yeah, if they had it we'd know. It also wouldn't have mattered I don't think, because I don't believe his phone was powered on.

 

[ClearAhead]

Yeah, if they had it we'd know. It also wouldn't have mattered I don't think, because I don't believe his phone was powered on.

I don’t think we know the date of these searches. I wonder, would they be the same as what was mentioned earlier, someone googling the crime after the fact?

 

[gremlin444]

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205'

Oct 28, 2024

Could shock cause unconsciousness??

I imagine that she could have had a vasovagal syncope (fainting) from fright (moo). This is where stress / fear cause the vagus nerve to contract and one faints due to sudden drop in blood pressure:
Vasovagal Syncope: Symptoms, Causes and Treatment

But I don't have any guesses on how long that might render one out cold for.

MOO

• photographer4

• 

Vasovagal syncope - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"...causing you to briefly lose consciousness...Recovery after a vasovagal episode generally begins in less than a minute."

Both my sons (teens at the time) have had vasovagal syncopes in the last 5 years, and that tracks with their experiences. One cut his hand mildly deeply with sharp knife in the kitchen, yelled for my husband, they met in the bathroom 5 feet away, and my son's eyes rolled back and he went down. Luckily my husband was able to catch him before his head hit the tub or the tile floor. He was out for about 40 seconds (I was in the doorway when he started to slump). For my other kid, he had it happen when an urgent care doctor was palpating his forearms, which we suspected were broken (yup, both of them were, and it was ulna and radius on both!). His lasted only about 20 seconds.

Nowhere near long enough to slowly bleed out from the kind of neck injury Abby had.

 

[shonyakay]

I think RA's confessions are going to explain all of the questions we have about the crime and the crime scene.

Nick M. says RA explained exactly how he did it and why.

The state is not on a fishing expedition here. They know he is the killer without a doubt and so will every one else when all is said and done. Imo.

 

[MassGuy]

I think RA's confessions are going to explain all of the questions we have about the crime and the crime scene.

Nick M. says RA explained exactly how he did it and why.

The state is not on a fishing expedition here. They know he is the killer without a doubt and so will every one else when all is said and done. Imo.

We can't make sense of the crime scene. If he can, it's game over.

 

[rez125]

Green scarf found at the scene and not claimed by the families? Nor tested.

Colour me shocked.

 

[ClearAhead]

Green scarf found at the scene and not claimed by the families? Nor tested.

Colour me shocked.

Could you kindly link that the green scarf was not tested?

ETA Might it shock you to know it was?
BBM
“She told the jury that the green scarf from the creek “may not have been related to the timing of the crime.” She says there is no DNA on it.”

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

 

[fred&edna]

Green scarf found at the scene and not claimed by the families? Nor tested.

Colour me shocked.

I thought the green scarf was found in the creek. I suppose it could still be tested for DNA even if it was soaked... I genuinely don't know if creek water could degrade DNA (but I assume it could). Did RA claim he was wearing a scarf? ETA: Were any green fibers found on the bodies??
jmo

Ahhh... here is info about sample being degraded.

The state shows the jury more clothing, including a sweatshirt, two socks, a green head scarf, a tank top shirt, the other black Nike shoe, a pair of jeans and a tie-dyed shirt, all recovered from the creek.

Bozinovski tells the jury the items from the creek impacted her analysis because the samples had degraded and DNA was partially removed.

She told the jury that the green scarf from the creek “may not have been related to the timing of the crime.” She says there is no DNA on it.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

 

[MassGuy]

Green scarf found at the scene and not claimed by the families? Nor tested.

Colour me shocked.

Simply not true. It was tested and no DNA was found. They believe it may not have been related to the crime in the first place.

She told the jury that the green scarf from the creek “may not have been related to the timing of the crime.” She says there is no DNA on it.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

 

[Arkay]

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205'

Oct 28, 2024

Could shock cause unconsciousness??

I imagine that she could have had a vasovagal syncope (fainting) from fright (moo). This is where stress / fear cause the vagus nerve to contract and one faints due to sudden drop in blood pressure:
Vasovagal Syncope: Symptoms, Causes and Treatment

But I don't have any guesses on how long that might render one out cold for.

MOO

• photographer4

• 

Vasovagal syncope - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

"...causing you to briefly lose consciousness...Recovery after a vasovagal episode generally begins in less than a minute."

Both my sons (teens at the time) have had vasovagal syncopes in the last 5 years, and that tracks with their experiences. One cut his hand mildly deeply with sharp knife in the kitchen, yelled for my husband, they met in the bathroom 5 feet away, and my son's eyes rolled back and he went down. Luckily my husband was able to catch him before his head hit the tub or the tile floor. He was out for about 40 seconds (I was in the doorway when he started to slump). For my other kid, he had it happen when an urgent care doctor was palpating his forearms, which we suspected were broken (yup, both of them were, and it was ulna and radius on both!). His lasted only about 20 seconds.

Nowhere near long enough to slowly bleed out from the kind of neck injury Abby had.

My identical twin sister and I both have this condition. It is usually not precipitated by anything specific for us. It just happens and we can tell when it’s coming on.

According to whoever is with us, it doesn’t last long.

Certainly, as you’ve said, nowhere long enough to bleed out, if we were in fact bleeding.

JMO and experience.

 

[rez125]

Could you kindly link that the green scarf was not tested?

Was on Andrea's live (which is still going).