Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #210

[steeltowngirl]

Well, they would be incorrect. “Pleading guilt” means entering a plea of guilty on the record with the Court.

I’m trying to understand how a pretrial detainee enters a plea to confess on record? When he started confessing at Westville, were (or should have) his attorneys been notified? Was it up to them to decide to allow him to proceed with a formal confession - and if not, if they felt he was confessing falsely due to a mental breakdown, were they responsible for requesting a competency evaluation?

If there is a legal reference for the process that I could read, I will, if you could guide me to the right place. TIA

 

[katydid23]

That’s not really how it works. There’s not a mini trial to determine whether the defense can prove their theory - the judge wouldn’t consider whether the third party has an alibi, for instance.

I think this judge did. And she did have Evidentiary Hearings, I believe, in which both sides looked at the Offers Of Proof brought forward by the Defense.

The defense would have to make a prima facie showing that a third party has a connection to the crime. For example, if a third party made a confession or made incriminating statements, that would be enough evidence to let the defense point to that third party. And that is what happened in this case by at least one third party potential suspect.

These were not just bald allegations made by the defense.

According to the Indiana statutes that have been posted here previously, there is a high bar that has to be met. It has to be MORE than just someone making a confession. The confession has to have substance, like it was a possibility to have happened.


https://support.google.com/websearch?p=ai_overviews&hl=en
Direct Connection Option
In a murder case, a "direct connection doctrine" regarding third-party culpability refers to a legal principle that requires a defendant attempting to prove another person committed the crime (a "third party") to present evidence showing a substantial and specific link between that third party and the murder, rather than just raising general suspicion or speculation about someone else's potential involvement; essentially, the defendant must demonstrate a direct connection between the third party and the crime scene or the victim to use this defense effectively.


Key points about the direct connection doctrine:

• Strict evidentiary standard:
  This doctrine imposes a higher burden on the defendant when attempting to introduce evidence of a third party's guilt, requiring more than just circumstantial evidence that could be considered too vague or tenuous.
• Purpose to prevent confusion:
  The doctrine aims to prevent juries from becoming overly confused by introducing irrelevant or speculative evidence about potential suspects not directly connected to the crime.

 

[sunshineray]

Well, they would be incorrect. “Pleading guilt” means entering a plea of guilty on the record with the Court.

I'm referencing #1

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
plead
verb
past tense: pleaded; past participle: pleaded

1. 1.​
   make an emotional appeal.
   "“Don't go,” she pleaded"
   Similar:
   
   beg
   entreat
   beseech
   implore
   appeal to
   petition
   supplicate
   importune
   pray to
   request
   ask earnestly
   call on
   adjure
   apply to
   solicit
   obsecrate​
2. 2.​
   present and argue for (a position), especially in court or in another public context.
   "using cheap melodrama to plead the case for three prisoners"

 

[fred&edna]

I've been under the impression that LE and the judge didn't (and don't) believe there was/is credible evidence to suggest anyone else committed this crime... particularly none the defense presented.

Does this automatically suggest violation of the 6th, and also suggest there's a conspiracy against RA by the judge and LE??

jmo/questions

 

[sunshineray]

Yes. I remember that. I was referring to a formal interview with her?
In fact, you raise another significant point.
If they had interviewed her formally and asked her if he said he went on the bridge that day, the answer would've been 'No' by the sounds of it.
Another 'Doh!' diamond from LE there.

We haven't heard from KA but isn't she on the witness lists?

 

[Megnut]

I wonder what RA wore to Peru that morning, that he needed to go home for a jacket. Until they were stripped of theirs, Abby and Libby found sweatshirts sufficed.

I suspect RA went home for more than just a jacket. And that the jacket wasn't for warmth but to hide what he went home for.

JMO

 

[cherrybier]

Can you provide a source to requests prosecution have or have not made regarding TV line of vision to gallery? The answer may be there.

Well that evidence was shown during the state's case, it was their evidence. Every mainstream outlet has reported on the D asking JG not to show their videos to the gallery out of respect, yet I didn't see any of the same news outlets report on the state doing the same, 10 days ago.

 

[shonyakay]

When RA was arrested and the PCA was released, I definitely thought RA was guilty. But as I watched the judge make bizarre rulings against the defense, then tried to remove them, and then refused to pay them after they were reinstated…and as I learned more about the conditions of his incarceration and the judge’s repeated refusal to have RA transferred to a more suitable environment - I saw what I considered to be violations of RA’s constitutional rights.

As trial started, I expected the evidence to be much stronger than it has turned out to be, especially the so-called confessions. And now law enforcement has backtracked a bit on some of their positions (e.g. they don’t seem to be as confident about where RA was parked), and discrepancies in the witness descriptions and timelines have been revealed.

So I am still on the fence about guilt, but I’m leaning more towards actual innocence than I have at any point since the arrest. The biggest factor for me was RA’s October 2022 police interview. To me, I believe he acted as an innocent man who didn’t even know how the girls were killed. I do not consider RA to be a very sophisticated man, so I do not think he was cleverly faking innocence.

IMO

"That bullet did not come from my gun if it was found at the murder scene or on the bridge."
- Allen to Holeman / October 2022

Him denying that a bullet found on the bridge was his, in my opinion corroborates his confession to Dr. Wala. RA told her he did something with the gun on the bridge and that is when he thought the bullet came out.

 

[katydid23]

B McDonald on Court TV said she'd heard about the van from people in the town, along with LE, years ago.

How do we know RA didn't hear it around town also? JMO.

So what would be his purpose, to connect all these real facts and then begin confessing to everybody? Why would he tell his wife and mother that he killed the girls?

He did not sound incoherent or delusional in those phone calls. What was his intent in telling the people he loved the most, that he killed Abby and Libby?

 

[DoctorRose]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Fox59 is a local news station here. It’s Fox but it’s not like the opinion-based segments like Tucker Carlson. (He’s the only example I could think of, not implying anything about him).

 

[steeltowngirl]

Toss it at the crime scene, 5 years later?

They could have put it on the unspent bullet.

 

[DoctorRose]

"That bullet did not come from my gun if it was found at the murder scene or on the bridge."
- Allen to Holeman / October 2022

Him denying that a bullet found on the bridge was his, in my opinion corroborates his confession to Dr. Wala. RA told her he did something with the gun on the bridge and that is when he thought the bullet came out.

But by that time, in 2022, it was known that they were abducted from the bridge. So I think in his original interview it makes sense that he’s including that as a scene of the crime. I’m honestly super split on what I think about his confession to Wala so I’m not sure there.

 

[cherrybier]

So what would be his purpose, to connect all these real facts and then begin confessing to everybody? Why would he tell his wife and mother that he killed the girls?

He did not sound incoherent or delusional in those phone calls. What was his intent in telling the people he loved the most, that he killed Abby and Libby?

"I think I'm losing my mind" was said to KA. Do you have the full phone call details handy?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Well that evidence was shown during the state's case, it was their evidence. Every mainstream outlet has reported on the D asking JG not to show their videos to the gallery out of respect, yet I didn't see any of the same news outlets report on the state doing the same, 10 days ago.

Fair point. Perhaps the state did not make a request to shield the view of the girls’ photos.

 

[katydid23]

IMO he was far from sane.

And yet his defenders are saying he went through Discovery and crafted a complicated, yet coherent and detailed confession, to tell to his Therapist.

And he was also able to have s few serious conversations with his wife and mother---where he was calm, collected, coherent, speaking in measured tones and answering pointed questions.

My brother was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. I know what it sounds like when someone is in a psychotic state and when they are not.

People go in and out. When they are out of their psychotic state, they are lucid and coherent. There is no doubt in my mind that he was lucid and coherent when he confessed to Mom.IMO

 

[NoeticSoul]

Fair point. Perhaps the state did not make a request to shield the view of the girls’ photos

Can't figure out for the life of me WHY they did NOT! smh Sometimes this whole trial seems completely A$$ backwards and wrong in so many ways to me!

imo

ebm to fix quoted post

 

[shonyakay]

But by that time, in 2022, it was known that they were abducted from the bridge. So I think in his original interview it makes sense that he’s including that as a scene of the crime. I’m honestly super split on what I think about his confession to Wala so I’m not sure there.

The point of my post was to show that RA wanted LE to know that if a bullet was found on the bridge, that it wasn't from his gun.

I think that is significant because he told Dr. Wala in his confession that he did something with the gun on the bridge and that is when he thought the bullet came out.

 

[MassGuy]

I wonder what RA wore to Peru that morning, that he needed to go home for a jacket. Until they were stripped of theirs, Abby and Libby found sweatshirts sufficed.

I suspect RA went home for more than just a jacket. And that the jacket wasn't for warmth but to hide what he went home for.

JMO

I want to know more about that trip to visit his parents. Usually there's a precipitating stressor prior to a crime like this. I wonder if maybe he had a fight with his parents (maybe why he didn't have lunch with them), which caused him to make the decision to buy beer, and ultimately head to the trail.

 

[cbeagle]

Heath said he recently spoke to law enforcement about having seen a car that looked like it was “in a movie.” He says the car was a 4-door that looked like it was from the 80’s or 90’s. He said he was 150-250 yards away when he saw it. The defense shows a photo of the car

Nothing is ever clear in this case.
What does mean that the car looked like it was in a movie?
How on earth does the defense have a photo of this car?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

minor4th said:

“The defense would have to make a prima facie showing that a third party has a connection to the crime. For example, if a third party made a confession or made incriminating statements, that would be enough evidence to let the defense point to that third party. And that is what happened in this case by at least one third party potential suspect.

These were not just bald allegations made by the defense.”

Adding to Katydid23’s excellent response to this…

ALL of the defense team’s purported non-traditional religious suspects had alibis that were investigated and confirmed by LE. The defense’s own witness, Todd Click, testified that he and his investigative team were never able to place those suspects in Delphi that day.
So maybe it wasn’t bald allegations, more like baldfaced lies. The defense certainly knew these people had alibis.
Truth matters and it has been in very short supply coming from the defense.