Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #211

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Sidenote:
I posted a couple of days ago that I believed the State must have had evidence that prevented BW from being impeached. We now know phone records show BW went straight home after work.
RSBM

Checking/working on the ATMs every, to me, would include using the computer at home to check in their status & not necessarily physically going to the ATMs. Also, he didn’t seem to mind pointing out the locations where the ATMs are at may have camera footage showing when he was there or not there. I would think a person trying to hide something would not have offered that up freely when simply asked if the ATMs have cameras - a yes or no clearly would have sufficed.

JMO

ETA not (have offered)
 
Last edited:
DAY FIFTEEN Murder Sheet


Part 2: Jury Questions [fabulous questions]

[anything in parenthesis are MY comments---the rest are notes from listening to podcast]

Dr Westcutt had talked about while RA was in his cell he could hear inmates yelling at him to kill himself—and he was scared of this...

Q: —so the Jury question was," If he had the common sense to fear for his safety, then could he have the common sense to fake psychosis?"

A= Dr W: that’s a good question but he was more scared in March, which was a lead up to his odd behaviour [how could she know that though?]

Q=When someone has depression and anxiety as a child, could it lead them to commit crimes as an adult ?

A= "it depends upon the person/ IN Ra’s case, he is more passive and subdued" , according to her assessment...

Q=[Dr Westcutt had said she watched all these videos of RA to prepare her assessment— so a J asked her if she watched the police interviews?
A= NO

[MS said that the police interviews, in their opinion, show a different person than the Dr was describing today—not as passive as she describes]

Q= Is he diagnosed with major depression w/psychosis or with a psychotic disorder ?

A= the former , the latter would be schizophrenia

Diener said so you are saying these are episodes of psychosis instead of a life long thing?

And Westcutt said " psychosis can ebb and flow with the depression…" {YES, I knew it, thank you]

Q: people wanted to know about the objective tests—

A: she said 'those are well accepted and there are even cook book type things where you can see symptoms and this is a sign of this or malingering or whatever… [that makes them sound kind of sketchy]


Q: Are there medical records for RA that have previous objective tests for RA ?

A=No, most of his symptoms were self reported, he wasn’t doing those in depth cognitive tests

Q people wanted to know about delusions vs delirium
A=Delusion example--you might think u are the president. Delirium is almost like being in a fun house, don’t know where you are etc—

Sidebar/break/sidebar

Apparently Dr Westcutt would not share all of the test results w/Prosecution—Diener called them out —Rozzi said u could have deposed her—JG said it was a Discovery issue, not depo issue...it got kind of heated
 
IMO it does not actually matter what exact time BW went home in any event. We know the killer was at the crime scene for over an hour.

RA saw the van - which means he was there whenever the van went by.

I get your point but I feel it does matter because in RA's detailed confession he stated that he got spooked by the van and then walked the girls' across the creek which lines up perfectly with the digital evidence on Libby's phone. The 2 floor elevation corresponding with the elevated land on the discovery side of the creek from 2:31 p.m. to 2:32 p.m. with Libby's phone then ceasing movement.
 
Thank you so much for going in depth on this.

Do you believe 2:32 p.m., when Libby's phone ceased movement, is when the killer completed the fatal attack?
Not the OP, but I think that is when the phone stopped moving underneath Abby's body but I believe he still was pursuing Libby and doing some things at the scene that lasted until Libby's family members started to look for them. :(

JMO
 
Not the OP, but I think that is when the phone stopped moving underneath Abby's body but I believe he still was pursuing Libby and doing some things at the scene that lasted until Libby's family members started to look for them. :(

JMO

I agree that that is certainly a possibility.

I was just talking about when the van sighting occurred and how it correlates with the digital evidence on Libby's phone.
 
So, out of his confessions what is real and what isn't?!

To me, if he never messed with anyone (SA) - it could mean he didn't kill anyone either.

I don't feel these confessions hold weight on the details given, what the D's expert analysed and now witness testimony about SA never happening.

JMO MOO JMT
I didn't find the D's expert as believable as some have. I think the two kind of cancelled each other out. IMO

As for the SA question---I am NOT saying the abuse happened. I really have no idea. I worked with 'survivors of incest and child abuse' in a support group for many years. I don't think many ,if any, would have answered YES to that question in such a high profile public situation, like this. It takes many survivors decades to answer that question, even to themselves, because of guilt and shame that comes with the taboo situation. It is not an easy question to answer publicly. IMO
 
IF RA had his phone up on the bridge, to watch the stock ticker, I bet the defense is going to put up a phone expert next to tell us what time RA left the trails and drove home. Or did I miss that testimony?
Are the defense going to put up a timeframe of Richard Allen's day? Do they have to?
If he'd left the trails when the murders were going on where was he? Where did he say he went?
I can't find anything post standing on the bridge and watching the fish.
 
bbm

(Editor's note - a previous version of this story reported that Zapanta said "no" when asked if she loved her father. This has been corrected to show that Zapanta said "yes," she does love her father)

Horrible mistake made by reporting that! Boy were mouths flapping about it. In fact, according to AB, after saying she loved her dad, she looked directly at him and smiled. So, I hope that his finally puts to rest all the disgusting conversations surrounding the rumours that he assaulted his daughter or his sister. BZ LOVES her father. Enough. Period. JMO
 
Are the defense going to put up a timeframe of Richard Allen's day? Do they have to?
If he'd left the trails when the murders were going on where was he? Where did he say he went?
I can't find anything post standing on the bridge and watching the fish.
Frozen in time, fixated on fish so far……quite the mystery. Then again, when finger pointing is all that’s being done, poor little Ricky is still on that bridge. I’m assuming at this point he just camped there all day. :p

JMO
 
Are the defense going to put up a timeframe of Richard Allen's day? Do they have to?
If he'd left the trails when the murders were going on where was he? Where did he say he went?
I can't find anything post standing on the bridge and watching the fish.

"Allen said he kept an eye on a stock ticker on his phone while on the trail. After leaving, he said he went home and continued to watch the stock market to "try and get rich." He said he considered it a hobby."

 
I didn't find the D's expert as believable as some have. I think the two kind of cancelled each other out. IMO

As for the SA question---I am NOT saying the abuse happened. I really have no idea. I worked with 'survivors of incest and child abuse' in a support group for many years. I don't think many ,if any, would have answered YES to that question in such a high profile public situation, like this. It takes many survivors decades to answer that question, even to themselves, because of guilt and shame that comes with the taboo situation. It is not an easy question to answer publicly. IMO

I do believe this particular expert as she was objective and didn't really have a personal relationship with Richard Allen at all.

As I understand it, RA's daughter said she wouldn't lie for him, and even had direct eye contact with him after saying she loved her father.

JMO MOO JMT
 
DAY FIFTEEN Murder Sheet


Part 2: Jury Questions [fabulous questions]

[anything in parenthesis are MY comments---the rest are notes from listening to podcast]

Dr Westcutt had talked about while RA was in his cell he could hear inmates yelling at him to kill himself—and he was scared of this...

Q: —so the Jury question was," If he had the common sense to fear for his safety, then could he have the common sense to fake psychosis?"

A= Dr W: that’s a good question but he was more scared in March, which was a lead up to his odd behaviour [how could she know that though?]

Q=When someone has depression and anxiety as a child, could it lead them to commit crimes as an adult ?

A= "it depends upon the person/ IN Ra’s case, he is more passive and subdued" , according to her assessment...

Q=[Dr Westcutt had said she watched all these videos of RA to prepare her assessment— so a J asked her if she watched the police interviews?
A= NO

[MS said that the police interviews, in their opinion, show a different person than the Dr was describing today—not as passive as she describes]

Q= Is he diagnosed with major depression w/psychosis or with a psychotic disorder ?

A= the former , the latter would be schizophrenia

Diener said so you are saying these are episodes of psychosis instead of a life long thing?

And Westcutt said " psychosis can ebb and flow with the depression…" {YES, I knew it, thank you]

Q: people wanted to know about the objective tests—

A: she said 'those are well accepted and there are even cook book type things where you can see symptoms and this is a sign of this or malingering or whatever… [that makes them sound kind of sketchy]


Q: Are there medical records for RA that have previous objective tests for RA ?

A=No, most of his symptoms were self reported, he wasn’t doing those in depth cognitive tests

Q people wanted to know about delusions vs delirium
A=Delusion example--you might think u are the president. Delirium is almost like being in a fun house, don’t know where you are etc—

Sidebar/break/sidebar

Apparently Dr Westcutt would not share all of the test results w/Prosecution—Diener called them out —Rozzi said u could have deposed her—JG said it was a Discovery issue, not depo issue...it got kind of heated
I agree that the D should have disclosed the Experts testimony to the State. Yet again, another example of the D and their underhanded ways. IMO
 
Horrible mistake made by reporting that! Boy were mouths flapping about it. In fact, according to AB, after saying she loved her dad, she looked directly at him and smiled. So, I hope that his finally puts to rest all the disgusting conversations surrounding the rumours that he assaulted his daughter or his sister. BZ LOVES her father. Enough. Period. JMO

Didn't watch the video. Not my cup of tea but I figured it was a typo.

I expect his family to love him unconditionally so that's neither here nor there for me in terms of his innocence or guilt.
 
It appears to have become fair sport to ridicule someone who suffers from mental illness. I guess that’s easy if one has never experienced it either personally or in a loved one. You don’t love them less, you tend to love them more. I hope no one here ever experiences what happened to RA in Westville or to have a loved one suffer through 13 months of solitary, sleep deprivation, tasing and finally full on psychosis. What has happened to RA, could happen to anyone of us, and THAT should scare the begeebies out of us. There’s a great video on Youtube by an attorney on why one should never talk to LE without an attorney present. This case has certainly impressed that upon me! All MOO.
 

Notes from MS Day 15
[things in parentheses are MY comments]

Dr Polly 'Westcott- on direct w/D:

She did 2 hr interview 5 hrs of testing for evaluation on RA
[only 2 hr interview?]
She also interviewed KA to gather bio and childhood info

She wrote 100 pg report

RA childhood:
Anxious/fearful from childhood
Abandoned by father /intense fears about school-severe separation anxiety/
Very overly worried about what others think about him

Meds for anxiety/severe depression
In adulthood:Fears/anxiety in workforce

Had meltdowns/fear of failure/anxiety about giving orders to others when promoted
Felt powerless, overwhelmed
Had crying fits and nervous breakdowns and would get demotions--they liked him so not fired just demoted a few times
Kathy had to help him recover/literally relied upon her

Dependent Personality Disorder
Feels worthless when alone/can’t function alone/abandonment fears are severe and debilitating

Greenlee:—in Holeman interview he seems different than described by Westcott--does not seem weak or powerless


Dr Westcutt main points
1.Essentially he’s a fragile egg— [is he though?]
So easy to crack, so vulnerable

2. Lying/exaggerating/malingering —assessments can be done to determine if that is being done [she didn’t see any malingering or deceit in her objective tests]

3. RA is slow to understand/not a problem solver/ruminastes about same things and obsesses but does not fix problems

4.She said he had a steep decline seen in April ==psychosis, suicidal, mumbling, defecating, poo, etc

[Diener objected to the diagnosis ? and JG agreed it was not substantiated?]

5. totality=major depressive disorder that can go into psychosis/spiralling

Aine says: question comes up—could this description of him, being so emotionally fragile mean he could be capable of anger, violence>?

6. Factors-dependent disorder/stress can change brain chemistry
Dr W claims RAs handwriting declined in quality/more fragmented, like his thought patterns
She compared letters he had written in Nov then in April


MCMI tests—they are objective [are they though?]

--- supposedly he fears rejection, fears confrontation, pulls away from conflict, is passive/resilient —prefers lack of confrontation

Aine:
in Liggett/Mullin interviews—RA seemed angry and vocal, not weak, passive
Also with KA he seemed strong—not weak

Dr W= Passive/submissive=according to her evaluation ——[Is he though?]

Diener—Cross:

Q:You say he had sensory deprivation—but didn’t he have rec time, showers, 3x wk,and Wala every day?
A: Dr W conceded yes


Diener made good point=records used for exam she used 30 to 50 days of Wala's—but there were a lot more than that—so who decided which ones you were given to evaluate?

MS SAID= it created ^^ impression that D only gave her limited scope of notes to create the diagnosis they wanted

Dr Westcutt said he was making confessions that were incompatible with the facts of case—Diener said how do u know that? Were you given case information by the Defense? Westcutt said , 'not really' but seemed that she was


Dr Westcutt used as example "He said Satan killed them" ----[but was he speaking figuratively again?]


Greenlee===if wife and mom were the 2 people he trusted the most, and those are who he confessed to, that is interesting.


Dr Westcutt= 'No evidence of deception or malingering on the test'— Aine, wonders how about in his behaviour?


Diener asked if he transferred trust to Dr Wala? Dr W said NO [that doesn't make sense to me]

Diener asked, why should your opinions matter more than Dr Martin or Dr Wala who had a lot of contact in real time when this was happening? [YES, GOOD ONE]

Westcutt Answer=I looked at their reports and the suicide companions—and took them all into account—[not a strong answer, imo]

Diener==only 30 to 50 notes of wala are included in reports —missing discussion about confessions to wife and mother[apr 5, may 3rd]

Westcutt=Answer—'my job is more about depth and context of the mental health symptoms rather than if the confessions are true '

Diener was able to point to that^^^ distinction and bring it to jurors attention
 
I do believe this particular expert as she was objective and didn't really have a personal relationship with Richard Allen at all.

As I understand it, RA's daughter said she wouldn't lie for him, and even had direct eye contact with him after saying she loved her father.

JMO MOO JMT

Objective? She said he was a "fragile egg" and admitted that she didn't watch his police interview.

You know the one where RA was cursing and threatened Holeman telling him he was going to pay for what he has done to his wife?
 
I get your point but I feel it does matter because in RA's detailed confession he stated that he got spooked by the van and then walked the girls' across the creek which lines up perfectly with the digital evidence on Libby's phone. The 2 floor elevation corresponding with the elevated land on the discovery side of the creek from 2:31 p.m. to 2:32 p.m. with Libby's phone then ceasing movement.

I realise it is tighter - but the song and dance over time is not exculpatory.
 
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