VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #214

[katydid23]

Who else went to prison as a result of the KAK investigation?

I don't know the names, but an entire CSAM ring was ultimately busted. And they were discovered because of the investigation of the 2 Klines. Apparently those two were buying and selling CSAM with a larger group and when LE got the subpoenas for the KAKS electronics, they were able to snag other pesos who were in communication.

 

[Boxer]

I just don't think they proved it beyond a reasonable doubt, place your anger at LE who did shoddy investigating, lost leads, dismissed the FBI, had volunteers in positions that handled sensitive information and should have been actual LE, failed to test items for DNA even if they believed it wasn't relevant. They believe he was scared by a white van but then he still apparently while scared still murdered them, changed clothes (at some point never explained?), and tried to cover them up. And then on top of that the poor treatment, even if he is the killer which he obviously could be, we need to have a higher standard than what was given.

I don't know what else to say outside of small town LE with big egos and a high profile case, MOO

Obviously the Sheriff's and Police offices were amatuer hour, but after filtering out for that.

If they had the answer and could tell you his guilt or innocence with 100% certainty after you placed a bet, which way would you bet 100k?
Not guilty?

 

[Niner]

Wasn't too sure WHEN they start deliberations today - that one tweet said 10am, but the rest of the articles I found said 9am...

Saturday, November 9th:
*Trial continues (Day 20)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 3) (@ 9 or 10am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Initial bond @ $20M on 10/27/22. On 2/16/23 held with no bond.
Amended charges (on 1/18/24/granted on 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Plead not guilty. Carroll County
*Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer [8/1/24] of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial is over. Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24 & ended with closing arguments on 11/7/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon. Prosecutors rested their case on 10/31/24. Defense began their case on 10/31/24 & rested on 11/7/24 [last witnesses on 11/6/24]. Closing arguments on 11/7/24. Jury started deliberations on 11/7/24 @ ~2pm to 4pm. Total hours: 11/7/24 (Day 1): 2 hours. 11/8/24 (Day 2): 9am-4pm [1 hour lunch]. Total hours: 8 hours
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. 3 alternates (3 woment) One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency on 10/25/24. Jury is sequestered. Will deliberate from 9am to 4pm daily.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-18 (10/18-11/7/24) & Jury Deliberations Day 1 (11/7/24) reference post #749 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-213.728313/page-38
*10/18/24 Docket update: Order issued re Joint stipulation regarding evidentiary matters by Judge Gull. 10/29/24 Docket update: Order issued re security Order by Judge Gull.
*11/1/24 Docket update: Order issued re Order on pending motions. 11/6/24 Docket updates: Order Issued. Order for Nov. 6, 2024 by Judge Gull. 11/7/24 Docket update: Order Issued. Order signed 11/7/24 by Judge Gull. Order issued re final instruction given by Court by Judge Gull. All orders: Noticed: McLeland, Baldwin, Rozzi, Luttrull, Diener & Auger.
11/8/24 Friday, Trial Day 19/Verdict Watch (Day 2): Jurors began deliberations at 9am to 4pm [with 1 hour for lunch].
For more info see post #848 (Day 19 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-213.728313/page-43
Trial continues on Saturday, 11/9/24 @ 9am OR 10am [??} with jury deliberations & our Verdict Watch!

 

[Emma Peel]

it’s been said at trial by Mullin that RAs phone is not in the tower dumps IIRC. It’s in evidence.

Hopefully someone has the reference for it.

MOO

Mullin's testimony specify RA's phone "is not in the tower dumps" for exactly what time frame?
The entire day? Or just the The 2:00-4:00 timeframe? Asking b/c I have no idea, I wasn't in the courtroom. The State argued to keep geofence out of evidence, IIRC.

If the geofence report(s) are in evidence, then by law, it is immediately available to the public. Available for FOIA Now.

The lack of transparency in Gull's court is by design, and ... I'm afraid ... will keep the public in the dark until quite some time post-verdict when interested sleuths can FOIA these docs and Mullin's testimony.

Side note: RA's phone from 2014 was not found via search, but his phone records from 2014 are recoverable from Android, and possibly transferred to the successor phone. Did the State investigate those records? Did the Defense? These seem like basic reports both sides would want. But apparently, neither side pursued the records?

This issue irks me. lol. So thanks very much for sharing your understanding that Mullin brought geofence data into evidence. I didn't know that.

JMHO

 

[katydid23]

After following this case since the afternoon the girls were missing, I went into this trial pretty solidly on the fence, but leaning ever-so-slightly to RA being not guilty. I was hoping what we learned from trial reporting would help me feel 100% solid either way. But, it didn't. I really expected some kind of evidence to convince me he was involved in some way. But it wasn't there.

If I had to vote right now, if I were on the jury, it would be not guilty. The State simply didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing proved to me that "BG" is RA. So, after that, according to the State's narrative of how things happened, nothing else matters.

But then, even more so, is the evidence of the headphones connecting (and then, more importantly, disconnecting) from Libby's phone.....this crime didn't happen as the State is narrating, in my opinion. And, there were more people involved, in my opinion.

There was no 'evidence' of headphones connecting. It was merely a 'headphone notification' seen on the raw data dump---HOWEVER the other notifications which would be necessary to prove there were actually headphones were not present.

No evidence the phone was unlocked, no evidence it was being used, so no evidence anyone listened to anything because it was still locked and never moved.

Another way that the headphone notification can occur is if water/debris gets into the headphone jack. The prosecution showed a picture of the phone when it was found---it was wet and dirty.

So evidence shows clearly that no one plugged any headphones in. And the defense knows that. Their expert even admitted during cross that an alternative explanation for that headphone notification could be that debris was detected by the sensors, which alerted the notification.

Whatever the jury decides, I will 100% support them. They've had a tough case. A really tough job! I'm mostly just worried about what happens next. Will we ever have justice for Abby and Libby?

As always, JMO.

 

[katydid23]

I had the same thought about too many actions occurring after being allegedly spooked.

However, when you read about people who do serious crimes, they actually crave risky situations. Who kidnaps 2 girls in broad daylight in a park, unless they like to take risks?

They do not 'worry' as much as we do about consequences. So if they hear a car coming they will pivot and try to avoid being seen----but once they do that, they are back into their sick fantasy. Their mind is not like yours or mine. Thank Goodness.

 

[Davemac1]

What murderer carries their "special-secret-meaning" branches with them when they are out to kill? They appear too large (in the sketch) to be considered simply sticks - and at least one appears to be the approx height of the body... which would be about 5ft (at least).

ETA: If killer didn't bring the secret branches with them, did they really spend time selecting their secret-rune-branches. None of this is logical.

jmo

Were any of the sticks/branches physically forced into the ground?
I don't see how you can accommodate a ritual sign for free lain objects? They could have moved naturally during the time they laid undiscovered at the mercy of the elements. Wind, gravity.
It is another notion of complete and utter nonsense dreamed up as a diversion tactic.

 

[BexLuth0r]

Apparently, it’s been deemed an appendage for KAK.

The fact that the defense threw in odinists with KAK has jarred me since. It is so incredibly devoid of strategy and doomed from the start. Which makes me wonder - A defence team for whom exactly?

IMHO

It wasn't just the phone with KAK was it? Didn't they investigate his whole story and none of it added up?
Whereas, RA initial story fits the timeline that the State has? And the lack of phone evidence when he was checking his stock ticker is also weird.

I do agree, odinists seems like a weird strategy to try and bring into the mix? I don't get it and won't pretend I ever will

 

[katydid23]

I agree with this. I'd also add that the Knowledge C detecting that the phone had headphones plugged in/unplugged adds a layer of uncertainty. Tech people will "get it." But the others? Hard sell. .

As always, JMO.

Actually, the tech people know it is a nothing burger. Knowledge C is just raw data from the phone which must be interpreted and analysed. Just the one 'notification' that something was detected in the headphone jack DOES NOT mean that someone actually plugged in any headphones.

To come to that conclusion you'd need more than just that. That notification by itself has other possible explanations.

If the phone was also shown unlocked at that time, and then after headphone notification, there were other things like a phone call, or a podcast being streamed, or music, etc, THEN I would conclude that the headphones were actually plugged in.

But there were no indications that the phone was ever attempted to be unlocked again after 2:15 pm---and it never moved, or was used.

Alternate explanation for headphones could easily be debris in the headphone jack. The phone was taken across the creek.

 

[katydid23]

The Delphi Murders Trial So Far (by the numbers):-64 witnesses-387 exhibits-17 days of testimony -9 hours of deliberations -23 days jurors sequestered-36 police depts providing security -29 video/audio clips played for jury-4 murder charges facing R Allen

https://twitter.com/x/status/1855127846693617680

11. The jury will restart deliberations Sat morning at 9:00. If there is no verdict by Sat night, jurors will get an off day on Sun before resuming discussions Mon morning.


That surprises me that they will deliberate on Monday. That's a federal holiday and the court's closed. So are all those employees coming in on a holiday---bailiffs, attendants, court clerks, etc?

I remember judges in other trials telling jurors they couldn't come in on Sundays or holidays because of that.

 

[acehard]

If the confessions did not exist, is he guilty? I think some jurors are hung up on this and makes it a lot difficult. MOO

 

[katydid23]

Imo that's why the state didn't want them in as it showed he wasn't there.

And defence wasn't allowed to bring that fact up.

Mooo.

I doubt that it showed he wasn't there. If the D had actually evidence that he was not there, they would have made an offer of proof during one of the hearing concerning that issue. They never made the claim that the geofencing proved he was not there.

I think their problem is that he claimed to be there while on his phone. If they had evidence that he was there from 12 to 1:30 and the left, we would have heard about it. I do not believe the geofence data showed his phone AT ALL>

And that does not prove he was not there---just proves he left his phone somewhere else. IMO

 

[Tortoise]

it’s been said at trial by Mullin that RAs phone is not in the tower dumps IIRC. It’s in evidence.

Hopefully someone has the reference for it.

MOO

The only reference to his phone not being in the evidence, that I've been able to find so far, is this -

"Liggett said there’s no digital evidence that links Allen, but Allen was on his phone at that time on the bridge."

Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Delphi Murders trial continues with testimony from Dr. Roland Kohr and Sarah Carbaugh. Allen accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.wishtv.com

"The defense asked, "Out of the hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence, digital evidence, does any tie to Richard Allen?"

Liggett said, "No." "

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 6 | No other report of Allen on trails other than self-reported tip

Six witnesses took the stand on Thursday in Day 6 of the Delphi Murders Trial with testimony focusing on the early stages of the case against Richard Allen.

www.wrtv.com

 

[snarast]

It wasn't just the phone with KAK was it? Didn't they investigate his whole story and none of it added up?
Whereas, RA initial story fits the timeline that the State has? And the lack of phone evidence when he was checking his stock ticker is also weird.

I do agree, odinists seems like a weird strategy to try and bring into the mix? I don't get it and won't pretend I ever will

KAK seems to lie compulsively, and has technical know how - I haven’t seen the evidence but his interaction with Libby should be disclosed in more detail.

IMHO

 

[MiniMoo]

It is a very weird crime scene. The sticks and branches do seem to be purposely placed, and not as concealment. One girl unclothed and the other with two sets of clothing. And blood on Libby running up her face instead of down her torso. Moving at least one of the bodies 20 feet, but no drag marks.

It makes no sense, but that does not seem to be the scene of someone who hastily murdered these girls after being spooked by a van on the other side of the creek. IMO whoever did this took them right to that spot and spent some time there. It also seems more consistent with more than one bad guy.

You got it on the nail!

I was waiting for someone to notice and was even counting down the minutes - actually hours.

The blood flow is going in an antigravity direction.

How could that be missed?

There should at least be blood on Libby's torso and front - even arms and legs.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[Boxer]

Mullin's testimony specify RA's phone "is not in the tower dumps" for exactly what time frame?
The entire day? Or just the The 2:00-4:00 timeframe? Asking b/c I have no idea, I wasn't in the courtroom. The State argued to keep geofence out of evidence, IIRC.

If the geofence report(s) are in evidence, then by law, it is immediately available to the public. Available for FOIA Now.

The lack of transparency in Gull's court is by design, and ... I'm afraid ... will keep the public in the dark until quite some time post-verdict when interested sleuths can FOIA these docs and Mullin's testimony.

Side note: RA's phone from 2014 was not found via search, but his phone records from 2014 are recoverable from Android, and possibly transferred to the successor phone. Did the State investigate those records? Did the Defense? These seem like basic reports both sides would want. But apparently, neither side pursued the records?

This issue irks me. lol. So thanks very much for sharing your understanding that Mullin brought geofence data into evidence. I didn't know that.

JMHO

If his phone pinged the tower it would be In the prosecutions discovery.

A phone is not an appendage, whatever modern society tells us.

It can be left behind or turned off.

We know there should be a digital trace of RA at the bridge, since he was checking his stocks. Or so he claimed.

MOO

A strange lie. In addition to tower records, apparently cell providers keep billing info 10 years. Unsure how detailed their data records of usage are, but they keep track so it has to have been logged in and out then added together.

 

[FromGermany1]

It's in the Franks----the theory that the Odinists took the girls away from the crime scene area, then brought them back and killed them in the middle of the night. So by definition, wherever the Odinist clan took the girls to hide out would be a lair.

lair:
a secluded or hidden place, especially a secret retreat or base of operations; a hideout or hideaway:

A "shack"??

 

[snooptroop88]

it’s been said at trial by Mullin that RAs phone is not in the tower dumps IIRC. It’s in evidence.

Hopefully someone has the reference for it.

MOO

Source: While Allen said he was looking at his phone’s stock ticker while on the trail, the defense pointed out that no digital data links Allen to the trails.

“That’s what’s interesting. He says he was on the phone but there’s no evidence of that either,” Liggett said on the stand.

When the officers asked to see Allen’s phone in the October interview, he was at first willing, but then Mullin said Allen changed his mind, became agitated and terminated the interview by walking out of the room.

The officers said they drove Allen back to his house and then they went to get a search warrant, returning a few hours later with more officers to search Allen’s home.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-tip-marked-cleared-found-while-cleaning-out-desk-put-richard-allen-on-the-radar-in-2022/

 

[acehard]

11. The jury will restart deliberations Sat morning at 9:00. If there is no verdict by Sat night, jurors will get an off day on Sun before resuming discussions Mon morning.


That surprises me that they will deliberate on Monday. That's a federal holiday and the court's closed. So are all those employees coming in on a holiday---bailiffs, attendants, court clerks, etc?

I remember judges in other trials telling jurors they couldn't come in on Sundays or holidays because of that.

Hotel conference room? Maybe they run a skeleton service. Probably cheaper than housing/feeding the jury per day. MOO

 

[Tortoise]

If the confessions did not exist, is he guilty? I think some jurors are hung up on this and makes it a lot difficult. MOO

"When the interview resumed, Mullin showed him the “Bridge Guy” picture. Allen said if the photo was from one of the Delphi victims’ phones, “there’s no way” it could’ve been him.

He then terminated the interview, Mullin said."

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-misfiled-report-from-2017-put-allen-in-investigators-sights-in-2022/

They showed him a photo of bridge guy on the bridge.


ISP: "We're going to track them down"

He didn't say -

1. 'no, that's not me'
2. 'no, I wasn't on the bridge'

His only concern with that picture was to do with it being on Libby's phone. He didn't rule out that it was him, or that he was on the bridge when shown the photo.

His lack of these important denials is as good as a positive identification of himself, given that he knew he was a suspect at that time IMO.

Take that together with

- his sensitivity as regards it being on Libby's phone
- changing the time he was there to distance himself from the time of the crime
- adding two inches to his height on his fishing licence 2 months after the crime,

I'd say yes, he ID'd himself as bridge guy before his 2023 and 2024 confessions.

IMO

And that doesn't even include details about his gun/bullet, the clothes he wore, his voice on the recording, and his phone not being at the crime scene.