VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #214

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm curious to see those work records.
Otto -
I see you have a verified tag under your name but no profession / case listed and was wondering, what are you verified in / on? Always wondered. Ty in advance.

I’d be curious to know how RA was cleared in that case as well, since we know he was “cleared” in this case. Moo.
 
Here is why I think the jury is having a hard time with the verdict. It is a moral dilemma. I think they are questioning whether they think they can convict Richard Allen based on confessions that LE only got based on him being put in solitary confinement.

The bridge guy video released to the public was not clear enough to identify Richard Allen. It never was.
 
Could the defense not have investigated BG's height? Instead of all the work they put into people who were not suspects? That could have been a really fast and very effective defense. IMO

Or just use RAs phone evidence to prove he wasn’t there! Where was that phone according to them?

Strange.
 
So what does that tell you? That people view sources that can contain such things? I don't.

And if someone said they searched for the photos, what does that mean?
It might tell you that but it doesn’t tell me that. I don’t know what sources would contain those things so I don’t know if I look at them or not. So I’m just not looking at any social media type anything.
 
It is a very weird crime scene. The sticks and branches do seem to be purposely placed, and not as concealment. One girl unclothed and the other with two sets of clothing. And blood on Libby running up her face instead of down her torso. Moving at least one of the bodies 20 feet, but no drag marks.

It makes no sense, but that does not seem to be the scene of someone who hastily murdered these girls after being spooked by a van on the other side of the creek. IMO whoever did this took them right to that spot and spent some time there. It also seems more consistent with more than one bad guy.
I do agree those branches were purposely placed, especially the ones going across each of their necks. I think the other sticks were used to balance the ones on their necks, but who the hell knows?

I don't know how anyone could tell if there were drag marks or not as the ground is saturated with leaves and twigs. Even in some alternate universe where two or more sexually motivated killers were working in tandem, there would be no need to pick up a dead body anyway.

Everything says one guy to me, from historical precedent to the crime scene itself. It's chaos, just like you'd expect from a mentally unstable guy who had probably been drinking. I'd be willing to bet Allen doesn't even know why he did certain things.

The only other type of case where I've come across an unspent round being at a crime scene, was an armed robbery situation where the gunman racked the gun to scare his victims. That makes perfect sense to me here, and would be entirely unnecessary with multiple offenders.

The blood evidence seems to indicate that Libby briefly attempted to flee, which you also wouldn't expect with multiple offenders.

You also have the fact that neither girl was raped, which is rare enough for one killer but has to be rarer still with multiple.

Could one man lead a couple scared girls down a hill, force them to do his bidding, and murder them by slitting their throats? I'd say absolutely. Throwing in another person or two is just such a massive reach to me, as I see nothing supporting it and everything pointing away from it.

I'm not sure about this whole truck thing and if he was spooked or not, and agree that he would have had to have spent some time with them after that. Adding more people into the mix doesn't change that, as he was armed with a gun. That's a force multiplier that makes another person unnecessary.
 
Last edited:
Here is why I think the jury is having a hard time with the verdict. It is a moral dilemma. I think they are questioning whether they think they can convict Richard Allen based on confessions that LE only got based on him being put in solitary confinement.

The bridge guy video released to the public was not clear enough to identify Richard Allen. It never was.

I agree with this. I'd also add that the Knowledge C detecting that the phone had headphones plugged in/unplugged adds a layer of uncertainty. Tech people will "get it." But the others? Hard sell. .

As always, JMO.
 
One thing i have learned from the closing is the timeline is verified by a lot more key data points than what was apparent from the coverage or the PCA.

They know quite precisely when the girls arrived. They know when BB saw the man on platform 1.

I conclude from this that if RA did indeed see the 3 juveniles then he must be the killer. there is nowhere else he can be on the trail except the man on platform 1.

MOO
 
I agree with this. I'd also add that the Knowledge C detecting that the phone had headphones plugged in/unplugged adds a layer of uncertainty. Tech people will "get it." But the others? Hard sell. .

As always, JMO.
It seems to have fallen apart on cross, but common sense made me rule it out anyway based on there being a more probable (innocent) explanation for something that crazy.

At the beginning and end of this time period, Eldridge, claimed she identified a moment when somebody plugged in the jack of wired headphones and unplugged them.

According to the defense this means the phone was 'handled by human hands' at a time when Allen cannot be placed at the scene of the crime.

But under cross examination by prosecutor Nick McLeland, Eldridge's confidence crumbled, and she was forced to admit that water damage or even dirt could have caused the audio output 'activity' to register in error.

She also admitted that the most likely explanation for the phone being in and out of reception was that it simply dropped service as it had done intermittently throughout the day due to the remote and wooded location in which it was found.

 
One thing i have learned from the closing is the timeline is verified by a lot more key data points than what was apparent from the coverage or the PCA.

They know quite precisely when the girls arrived. They know when BB saw the man on platform 1.

I conclude from this that if RA did indeed see the 3 juveniles then he must be the killer. there is nowhere else he can be on the trail except the man on platform 1.

MOO
But Bb didn’t describe RA even almost imo. Trying to remember did RA see BB?
 
Here is why I think the jury is having a hard time with the verdict. It is a moral dilemma. I think they are questioning whether they think they can convict Richard Allen based on confessions that LE only got based on him being put in solitary confinement.

The bridge guy video released to the public was not clear enough to identify Richard Allen. It never was.
Right. And if they can’t prove RA = BG imo the case falls apart. For me this is a big part of why I would not convict.
 
Abby Surviving Injury. Could She Have Screamed? Did Rozzi Fabricate?
Abby suffered a single mortal wound to the left side of her neck that hit the jugular vein. He estimated she bled out in five to ten minutes and said death was not instantaneous. He later said she would “definitely” have had the chance to react to her injuries.
@steeltowngirl
TYVM for your post w quote & link. :) Just jumping off from it now.
WISH article reports that the Forensic Pathologist who conducted the autopsy testified:
1. He estimated that post-injury, Abby survived 5-10 min. &
2. She would “definitely” have had the chance to react to her injuries.
React in what way? Article did not state that ForPath listed “screaming” or other possible reactions that Abby may have been capable of then. When ForPath was on the stand on cross, Rozzi could have asked him for more specifics about her (possible/likely/probable/ definite?) post-injury CAPABILITIES , e.g., blink, speak, sit up, move hand, turn head, what about scream or leap to her feet & sprint like a GAZELLE. Did Rozzi press the ForPath for possible REACTIONS Abby may have been CAPABLE of in that estimated 5 – 10 min. period?
In ^ article, I see no mention, appears Rozzi failed to do so. Maybe noted in other MSM? Anyone?

BTW, did MSM report length of wound? Several inches?* Anyone recall?

1.If ForPath did not testify - in his best medical judgment - that Abby would still (possibly/likely/probably/ definitely?) have been capable of SCREAMING or other specific actions, then any conclusion (e.g., the mortally wounded Abby “could have screamed”) that Rozzi draws in final arguments is based on his FABRICATION. Not on trial EVIDENCE as closing arguments are supposed to be.**
AFAIK Rozzi had no evidentiary basis for inserting “could have screamed”) into closing argument.

2.AND (even if the ForPath testified that Abby would have been capable of screaming), how is the following RELEVANT in Rozzi’s closing argument: “He says Abby would have lived for 5-10 minute and could have screamed, but nobody heard any screaming.”*** WHAT was he trying to show?
Even if Abby did scream, as other posts here noted it’s possible nobody was w’in hearing range. IIRC the ForPath’s autopsy report or testimony said ~ ToD was ~41 hours before recovery of remains but don’t know if state or defense evidence locked in the time of death any tighter.
If Rozzi was trying to tie “nobody heard any screaming” period to another event as part of a TIMELINE, it was not persuasive to me. IF he specified a time for the purported silence & a time for the other event, I have not yet read it but could have missed it. Anyone see it?

3. Does stating Abby “could have screamed” carry an undercurrent of VICTIM BLAMING, i.e., she should have screamed but did not?

I may have expected too much detail from MSM in a trial w no vid coverage or just missed the outlets w clarification on these issues. I realize these reporters barred from using electronic or digital devices in the courtroom are working under alien conditions. Probably STONE AGE for some. ;)

if anyone can fill these ^ gaps or comment, I would appreciate it greatly.
At the moment w’out further reporting, Rozzi’s “she could have screamed” & “nobody heard any screaming” arguments fall flat. Imo jmo moo.

__________________________________________________
*ETA: sorry if already discussed extensively.
Could the wound to jugular vein – if 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 (?) inches long – also have cut the larynx, rendering Abby unable to scream or even speak at typical conversational volume? Possible/likely/ probable/definitely? How many inches btwn jugular vein & larynx in child-sized Abby?
Images of jugular veins & larynx.
** closing argument
*** Day 18 Delphi Murders trial: Day 18 live blog
 
Last edited:
The other general comment i would make is that the evidence presented at trial clearly shows Judge Gull did not exclude all the phone evidence. The defence was simply prevented from using Geofence as a back door SODDI to imply witnesses at trial were in fact the killers.

The problem with this case all along has been the killer is the person who did not have a phone at the trails

so while i was still expecting the FBI CAST expert to testify, i get why this ended up being relegated to investigators noting RAs phone wasn’t in the tower dumps. I can only theorise the actual cell tower subpoena for RA came up blank because the data was not kept so long.

But the key point here is the D never challenged any of that. They never claim RAs phone was in those dumps

It’s a huge red flag IMO.
 
I’d be curious to know how RA was cleared in that case as well, since we know he was “cleared” in this case. Moo.
EBM (dang typo!)
I knew that RA submitted the tip about himself to the DNP officer and then the tip sheet was mislaid/no one followed it up, but was he actually labeled “clear” by investigators?
 
Some really good stuff here:

A lot of folks I spoke to outside the courthouse expected a verdict today—especially since it’s Friday & the assumption is the sequestered jurors (understandably) want to reunite w their families in time for the weekend. It’s just not that simple. SO much evidence to review.

Making this case so complex: multiple timelines the jury must review (time of murders vs witness statements & forensic data, dates of confessions vs dates of RA mental health diagnosis) and 100% opposite testimony from state & defense experts on ballistics & RA mental health.

That complexity combined with the jury’s demonstrated curiosity and willingness to ask lots of questions suggests the deliberations could well last several more days. So no real surprise that we do not have a verdict after just 9 hours of deliberations.

The jury can ask to re-view evidence. It occurred to me that jurors did not get to listen to Bridge Guy’s “down the hill” statement side-by-side with Richard Allen’s voice during his interrogations. They could ask to do that. I expect they’ll soon ask to re-view some evidence.

If that happens, Allen & his attorneys (and the prosecutors) will be allowed to be in the courtroom while jurors revisit evidence & testimony. So don’t get freaked out if Allen arrives at the courthouse in the coming days — not necessarily a sign that jurors reached a verdict.

That brings us to timing of a verdict. Once jurors have a decision, it will likely be 90-120 minutes before it’s read in court. Allen is 30 min away at the Cass Co Jail. He & other people must arrive & more security measures must be implemented before a verdict is announced.

The jury will restart deliberations Sat morning at 9:00. If there is no verdict by Sat night, jurors will get an off day on Sun before resuming discussions Mon morning.

Judge Gull said a few days ago that everyone needs a rest on Sun; these jurors deserve it.

 
The other general comment i would make is that the evidence presented at trial clearly shows Judge Gull did not exclude all the phone evidence. The defence was simply prevented from using Geofence as a back door SODDI to imply witnesses at trial were in fact the killers.

The problem with this case all along has been the killer is the person who did not have a phone at the trails

so while i was still expecting the FBI CAST expert to testify, i get why this ended up being relegated to investigators noting RAs phone wasn’t in the tower dumps. I can only theorise the actual cell tower subpoena for RA came up blank because the data was not kept so long.

But the key point here is the D never challenged any of that. They never claim RAs phone was in those dumps

It’s a huge red flag IMO.
This is really insightful commentary. Thanks
 
The Delphi Murders Trial So Far (by the numbers):-64 witnesses-387 exhibits-17 days of testimony -9 hours of deliberations -23 days jurors sequestered-36 police depts providing security -29 video/audio clips played for jury-4 murder charges facing R Allen

 
Finally and I disagree strongly with Lawyer Lee here. It’s all very well for her to generically claim Geofence should be allowed but we had a specific hearing about this and AFAIK the defence didn’t present any concrete geofence argument they wanted to make. So i am sceptical about this being a big appeal issue when they don’t appear to have presented that evidence at the hearing. Like where was the Ds claimed geofence expert at that hearing?

One wonders if Scott Reisch is correct and it was another tactical blunder to launch their BOOM geofence motions pretrial and end up getting all that suppressed. They should have saved it to pull out when they had those witnesses on the stand.

MOO
 
The other general comment i would make is that the evidence presented at trial clearly shows Judge Gull did not exclude all the phone evidence. The defence was simply prevented from using Geofence as a back door SODDI to imply witnesses at trial were in fact the killers.

The problem with this case all along has been the killer is the person who did not have a phone at the trails

so while i was still expecting the FBI CAST expert to testify, i get why this ended up being relegated to investigators noting RAs phone wasn’t in the tower dumps. I can only theorise the actual cell tower subpoena for RA came up blank because the data was not kept so long.

But the key point here is the D never challenged any of that. They never claim RAs phone was in those dumps

It’s a huge red flag IMO.
or ...
RA's phone wasn't in the geofence dumps b/c he wasn't there during the timeframe of the dumps.
We have no information about the dumps. Neither does the jury. Not sure why we're inventing stuff about dumps that ... now we can confirm ... have not been entered into evidence.
JMHO
 
or ...
RA's phone wasn't in the geofence dumps b/c he wasn't there during the timeframe of the dumps.
We have no information about the dumps. Neither does the jury. Not sure why we're inventing stuff about dumps that ... now we can confirm ... have not been entered into evidence.
JMHO

Imo that's why the state didn't want them in as it showed he wasn't there.

And defence wasn't allowed to bring that fact up.

Mooo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
172
Guests online
685
Total visitors
857

Forum statistics

Threads
625,665
Messages
18,507,943
Members
240,832
Latest member
bibthebab
Back
Top