VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #214

[katydid23]

I highly doubt they would deliberate for 9 hours and then reach a verdict and then choose to sleep on it, the last thing you would want to do when you finally get everyone to agree on a verdict is to break up for 18 hours, jmo

A lot of juries do that---they come to a decision and then 'sleep on it' so each can process it overnight. What ever verdict they come to it will be jarring for many people.

 

[MassGuy]

or ...
RA's phone wasn't in the geofence dumps b/c he wasn't there during the timeframe of the dumps.
We have no information about the dumps. Neither does the jury. Not sure why we're inventing stuff about dumps that ... now we can confirm ... have not been entered into evidence.
JMHO

We can just use some good old common sense with this one. The dumps would have been for a certain time period before and after the murders. Allen told police he was there during that timeframe. We know that law enforcement was contacting people whose phone numbers came up during that time period, to include a witness who testified (I think she said it was her mother's phone or something).

Allen said he was using his phone to repeatedly check stock quotes, which doesn't come close to passing the smell test unless he is some sort of prolific day trader (no evidence of that).

He should be in that tower dump, but we've heard that no digital evidence puts him there that day. Here that absence of evidence is evidence.

Evidence of Allen being a liar. Evidence of premeditated murder.

 

[iamshadow21]

or ...
RA's phone wasn't in the geofence dumps b/c he wasn't there during the timeframe of the dumps.
We have no information about the dumps. Neither does the jury. Not sure why we're inventing stuff about dumps that ... now we can confirm ... have not been entered into evidence.
JMHO

A phone is not an appendage, whatever modern society tells us.

It can be left behind or turned off.

We know there should be a digital trace of RA at the bridge, since he was checking his stocks. Or so he claimed.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

We can just use some good old common sense with this one. The dumps would have been for a certain time period before and after the murders. Allen told police he was there during that timeframe. We know that law enforcement was contacting people whose phone numbers came up during that time period, to include a witness who testified (I think she said it was her mother's phone or something).

Allen said he was using his phone to repeatedly check stock quotes, which doesn't come close to passing the smell test unless he is some sort of prolific day trader (no evidence of that).

He should be in that tower dump, but we've heard that no digital evidence puts him there that day. Here that absence of evidence is evidence.

Evidence of Allen being a liar. Evidence of premeditated murder.

None of the geofence info was entered into evidence at trial.
I agree that we can just use some good old common sense and discuss evidence submitted at trial.
Anything else, at this point in the process, is irrelevant. eta: And I mean irrelevant as a practicality, not a criticism. WSers know so much more than the jury ... now it's time to put on the jury's hat and focus on facts and argument in evidence. Because THAT is what will determine the verdict.
JMHO

 

[getthefax]

Imo that's why the state didn't want them in as it showed he wasn't there.

And defence wasn't allowed to bring that fact up.

Mooo.

No. It could only show his phone wasn’t there.
But RA said it was— he said he was there, and that was watching a stock ticker on his phone while he walked there.

 

[katydid23]

I have never read in any motions where the defense mentioned a secret odinist lair. Could you please provide a source for that?

I really appreciate it.

JMO

It's in the Franks----the theory that the Odinists took the girls away from the crime scene area, then brought them back and killed them in the middle of the night. So by definition, wherever the Odinist clan took the girls to hide out would be a lair.

lair:
a secluded or hidden place, especially a secret retreat or base of operations; a hideout or hideaway:

 

[Moreack]

I stopped keeping a close eye on this case when RA became the only suspect. Even with his multiple confessions this doesn’t make sense to me. BG looks, has a similar build, walks and dresses exactly like my husband does. Just a normal working trade guy. Libby’s sister said in a video that many men in Delphi dress this way. If we lived remotely close to Delphi I would have called the tip line reporting that my husband looks just like BG. I think there will be reasonable doubt. The jury is taking too long to make a verdict.

 

[katydid23]

They're not getting the holiday off I'm pretty sure.

They have to, I think, because it's a federal holiday and the courts are closed. So no bailiffs, attendants, court clerks, etc.
And schools are out so those workers need to be home.

 

[snarast]

A phone is not an appendage, whatever modern society tells us.

It can be left behind or turned off.

We know there should be a digital trace of RA at the bridge, since he was checking his stocks. Or so he claimed.

MOO

Apparently, it’s been deemed an appendage for KAK.

The fact that the defense threw in odinists with KAK has jarred me since. It is so incredibly devoid of strategy and doomed from the start. Which makes me wonder - A defence team for whom exactly?

IMHO

 

[KooshBall]

It seems to have fallen apart on cross, but common sense made me rule it out anyway based on there being a more probable (innocent) explanation for something that crazy.

At the beginning and end of this time period, Eldridge, claimed she identified a moment when somebody plugged in the jack of wired headphones and unplugged them.

According to the defense this means the phone was 'handled by human hands' at a time when Allen cannot be placed at the scene of the crime.

But under cross examination by prosecutor Nick McLeland, Eldridge's confidence crumbled, and she was forced to admit that water damage or even dirt could have caused the audio output 'activity' to register in error.

She also admitted that the most likely explanation for the phone being in and out of reception was that it simply dropped service as it had done intermittently throughout the day due to the remote and wooded location in which it was found.

Delphi murder defense tells jury to ignore 'smoking gun' evidence

As the highly-anticipated trial of Richard Allen in Indiana entered its sixteenth day in Carroll County Courthouse the court heard a wealth of expert testimony brought by the defense.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The cross examination of this witness is being ignored a lot, for some reason.

 

[iamshadow21]

Apparently, it’s been deemed an appendage for KAK.

The fact that the defense threw in odinists with KAK has jarred me since. It is so incredibly devoid of strategy and doomed from the start. Which makes me wonder - A defence team for whom exactly?

IMHO

The approach to me has always seemed to be the spaghetti approach. Everything and everyone all at once for a dozen reasons - or no reason.

So much chaos and confusion. Misdirection.

That's why they tried a million times to get their hydra of a strategy admissable. Because chaos, not precision, was the name of the game.

So it's no surprise that when it was not allowed, their last minute attempt at a defense was a bit insipid. They'd never actually planned for a defense that involved any kind of focus.

I've made no secret that I think it more likely than not that RA was responsible. But I've also been very clear that I think that this defense team did not have their client's best interests central to their approach. I think that BR and AB saw media and dollar signs and approached this whole thing like a dirty political campaign. I think their entire strategy was ego driven. And that angers me, because whatever RA has or has not done, he was entitled to a team who put his rights and interests first.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

We can just use some good old common sense with this one. The dumps would have been for a certain time period before and after the murders. Allen told police he was there during that timeframe. We know that law enforcement was contacting people whose phone numbers came up during that time period, to include a witness who testified (I think she said it was her mother's phone or something).

Allen said he was using his phone to repeatedly check stock quotes, which doesn't come close to passing the smell test unless he is some sort of prolific day trader (no evidence of that).

He should be in that tower dump, but we've heard that no digital evidence puts him there that day. Here that absence of evidence is evidence.

Evidence of Allen being a liar. Evidence of premeditated murder.

and also if the tower dumps alibied RA why didn’t his counsel make that argument in the pretrial motions and at the 3 day hearing?

if that were really true it would be negligent in the extreme! The judge relies on counsel to make these evidential arguments!

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

It's in the Franks----the theory that the Odinists took the girls away from the crime scene area, then brought them back and killed them in the middle of the night. So by definition, wherever the Odinist clan took the girls to hide out would be a lair.

lair:
a secluded or hidden place, especially a secret retreat or base of operations; a hideout or hideaway:

yet somehow a place that can receive Grandmas text without giving away its location!

 

[snarast]

The approach to me has always seemed to be the spaghetti approach. Everything and everyone all at once for a dozen reasons - or no reason.

So much chaos and confusion. Misdirection.

That's why they tried a million times to get their hydra of a strategy admissable. Because chaos, not precision, was the name of the game.

So it's no surprise that when it was not allowed, their last minute attempt at a defense was a bit insipid. They'd never actually planned for a defense that involved any kind of focus.

I've made no secret that I think it more likely than not that RA was responsible. But I've also been very clear that I think that this defense team did not have their client's best interests central to their approach. I think that BR and AB saw media and dollar signs and approached this whole thing like a dirty political campaign. I think their entire strategy was ego driven. And that angers me, because whatever RA has or has not done, he was entitled to a team who put his rights and interests first.

MOO

Exactly and precisely. IMHO. The approach detracts attention from the real tragedy - the promising lives being taken.

 

[MiniMoo]

There is sincerely no predicting what a jury will do! It is a crapshoot at this point.

All they need to keep in mind is that the burden of proof is on the State - did the State prove that Richard Allen is BG.

I have every confidence that they will assess and weigh up everything accordingly.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[mrjitty]

None of the geofence info was entered into evidence at trial.
I agree that we can just use some good old common sense and discuss evidence submitted at trial.
Anything else, at this point in the process, is irrelevant. eta: And I mean irrelevant as a practicality, not a criticism. WSers know so much more than the jury ... now it's time to put on the jury's hat and focus on facts and argument in evidence. Because THAT is what will determine the verdict.
JMHO

it’s been said at trial by Mullin that RAs phone is not in the tower dumps IIRC. It’s in evidence.

Hopefully someone has the reference for it.

MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

Not the defense's job to prove a defendant innocent as defendants are already presumed innocent by virtue of our judicial laws. It's a defense's job to best defend their client by ensuring that the facts presented are accurate, that the defendant is tried by the laws of trial and to present any contradictory evidence through expert witnesses, cross examination etc. but it is not their job to prove that the defendant is innocent.

Good one!

Well said - a great reminder of what Defense attorneys do and don't do.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[Tricia]

We have a new poll with a new question.
What do you think the jury's verdict will be in Delphi?
You can vote once a day.
Guilty
Not Guilty
Hung Jury
CLICK HERE TO TAKE THE POLL

 

[katydid23]

I just don't think they proved it beyond a reasonable doubt, place your anger at LE who did shoddy investigating, lost leads, dismissed the FBI, had volunteers in positions that handled sensitive information and should have been actual LE, failed to test items for DNA even if they believed it wasn't relevant. They believe he was scared by a white van but then he still apparently while scared still murdered them, changed clothes (at some point never explained?), and tried to cover them up. And then on top of that the poor treatment, even if he is the killer which he obviously could be, we need to have a higher standard than what was given.

I don't know what else to say outside of small town LE with big egos and a high profile case, MOO

There's only been ONE murder case in the past 10 years in Delphi area---this one.
So obviously the cops were in over their heads. But I am not going to reward a child killer just because there were some mistakes made, some because of inexperience.

I think there was enough evidence to prove that BG was the one who kidnapped the girls at gunpoint. And there was enough evidence to show that RA was BG. I think it follows that he was also the killer, but if people have doubts then just the kidnapping would be enough to put him away for Life anyway.

I don't think the poor treatment means that he should walk free after killing two little girls. If his family wants to sue the IDOC, go for it. But he has mental illness was there BEFORE the incarceration. I'm sure it was exacerbated by it, but that shouldn't mean he should not be held accountable for the murders. IMO

 

[cherrybier]

There's only been ONE murder case in the past 10 years in Delphi area---this one.
So obviously the cops were in over their heads. But I am not going to reward a child killer just because there were some mistakes made, some because of inexperience.

I think there is enough evidence to prove that BG was the one who kidnapped the girls at gunpoint. And there was enough evidence to show that RA was BG.

I don't think the poor treatment means that he should walk free after killing two little girls. If his family wants to sue the IDOC, go for it. But hie mental illness was there BEFORE the incarceration. I'm sure it was exacerbated by it, but that shouldn't mean he should not be held accountable for the murders. IMO

I don't think anyone is suggesting a murderer should walk because of two years of terrible treatment.

Moo.