GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #215

[angelainwi]

Serious question. Does JG actually have a choice? I mean if she sends them back and they still cannot come to a consensus, how is she able to prevent a hung jury? I have no legal knowledge but hung juries do happen. JMVHO

She can send them back out to deliberate more a couple of times with an Allen charge. But at some point if they cannot come to consensus she has to accept that they are hung.

 

[Arkay]

got very weird in here not too long ago this evening & it seems like now there’s an uncomfortable silence.

Exactly! The uncomfortable silence needs to be overcome. Liiby and Abby need us.
:0)

I missed any earlier weirdness because I haven’t checked in much today.

Don’t fret, guys! IMO it’s been quiet today because there is no court.

Therefore, no summaries from reporters, nothing to observe, nothing to learn today.

I’ve nothing new to say because all of us have been following, some of us for years, and until court opens Monday there’s nothing but us repeating ourselves.

I think Monday this thread will be flying.

Justice for you, Abby! Justice for you, Libby! Peace for your families.

 

[MassGuy]

I am praying it’s not as it would be a total miscarriage of justice for the Abby and Libby and their families.

A total miscarriage would be not guilty. I do think it’s highly unlikely, but it is still within the realm of possibility.

A hung jury means round two, which certainly beats the alternative. A new judge who allows cameras would be a nice bonus.

If I was a betting man, which I absolutely am, I’d bet on Tuesday.

 

[cherrybier]

She can send them back out to deliberate more a couple of times with an Allen charge. But at some point if they cannot come to consensus she has to accept that they are hung.

That's what I thought as well.

Moo.

 

[susiQ]

She can send them back out to deliberate more a couple of times with an Allen charge. But at some point if they cannot come to consensus she has to accept that they are hung.

Thank you!

 

[Boxer]

JG’s ruling on “no nexus” will surely be challenged if RA is convicted. She has provided a laundry list of reasons for an appeal. MOO

An appeal automatic.

Evidence has to meet a criteria, the judge can say whether the evidence has met the criteria or not. So its not a procedural error.

 

[photographer4]

Serious question. Does JG actually have a choice? I mean if she sends them back and they still cannot come to a consensus, how is she able to prevent a hung jury? I have no legal knowledge but hung juries do happen. JMVHO

I was wondering the same thing - if the jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict then what rules exist about when / how long they can be sent back to keep trying, if any? If I were on a jury that couldn’t reach a unanimous decision, even if I was the reason why (eg; if everyone wanted to vote guilty except me), I would still refuse and eventually I would just walk out and accept whatever happened. I’d also hire a lawyer to assist me with any possible consequences. At what point could JG forcing them to go back and keep trying be considered placing them (all or some) under duress?? Genuinely asking.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Serious question. Does JG actually have a choice? I mean if she sends them back and they still cannot come to a consensus, how is she able to prevent a hung jury? I have no legal knowledge but hung juries do happen. JMVHO

I'm not Tricia but I don't think she meant that the judge will make the jury deliberate into perpetuity.

I think the judge will make the jury go back and make sure they are truly hung before calling it a hung jury. JMO.

 

[Boxer]

Serious question. Does JG actually have a choice? I mean if she sends them back and they still cannot come to a consensus, how is she able to prevent a hung jury? I have no legal knowledge but hung juries do happen. JMVHO

A judge can ask them questions, ask them to try again etc. .

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Hi IzzyBlanche,
Your guess is just as good as mine. I hope I am wrong.
If they come back with a hung jury, Judge Gull will send them back and make them keep deliberating. I don't think she will accept a hung jury.

Hi Tricia! Many thanks for Websleuths!

I first came to Websleuths to follow the trial of David Westerfield for the murder of Danielle van Dam. That took place literally right down the road from me.

The jury took much longer to convict than those of us who thought he was guilty expected, so people were predicting a hung jury. Westerfield was convicted.

Since then I've followed multiple cases in which the length of jury deliberations suggested a hung jury to some observers, but wasn't hung.

This is a very serious case and I expect the jury is taking their responsibility seriously, and weighing every piece of evidence and non-evidence before agreeing to the momentous step of sending a person to prison for the rest of their life.

I know I would be.

 

[photographer4]

An appeal automatic.

Evidence has to meet a criteria, the judge can say whether the evidence has met the criteria or not. So its not a procedural error.

Could they not seek an appeal at a higher level? Higher than JG? If not, why not?

 

[Boxer]

Could they not seek an appeal at a higher level? Higher than JG? If not, why not?

Yes. The Indiana Court of Appeals.
The appeal is almost automatic.

 

[Salah11]

She can send them back out to deliberate more a couple of times with an Allen charge. But at some point if they cannot come to consensus she has to accept that they are hung.

That makes sense as if it’s like 10/11 who say guilty and only 1 or 2 saying not then it would make sense to go back and try and get them to discuss as a lots at stake.

Moo

 

[photographer4]

Yes. The Indiana Court of Appeals.
The appeal is almost automatic.

Thanks! Can they refuse to agree to hear it?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

She can send them back out to deliberate more a couple of times with an Allen charge. But at some point if they cannot come to consensus she has to accept that they are hung.

Amen.

 

[Boxer]

Sad if a hung jury. A guilty verdict does not mean 100% certainty, but whether you would make your own large decision based on evidence heard.

Reasonable doubt has been described as the juror applying the same standard they would to a their own large personal decision.

I cant see any reasonable doubt.

 

[Arkay]

Serious question. Does JG actually have a choice? I mean if she sends them back and they still cannot come to a consensus, how is she able to prevent a hung jury? I have no legal knowledge but hung juries do happen. JMVHO

Redirecting...

RULE 28. ASSISTING JURORS AT AN IMPASSE

If the jury advises the court that it has reached an impasse in its deliberations, the court may, but only in the presence of counsel, and, in a criminal case the parties, inquire of the jurors to determine whether and how the court and counsel can assist them in their deliberative process. After receiving the jurors' response, if any, the court, after consultation with counsel, may direct that further proceedings occur as appropriate.

*********************************************************


Generally speaking, in my experience when it’s a felony criminal case, if a jury is hung a judge will encourage the jury to see if they can manage to get to a place of unanimity.

If they are deadlocked and no one is changing their stance, the foreperson will send a note to the judge that they cannot arrive at a unanimous verdict. The judge will call them in, ask a few questions, and then it’s the judge’s discretion whether or not to declare a mistrial.

 

[shonyakay]

How many predict today (Monday) to be the day?

Given that they took a short day on Saturday maybe they just had some small kinks left to work out.

They possibly were able to talk on Sunday if they were all together.

Maybe they will come to an agreement today, or come to an agreement that they can't come to an agreement.

I pray for comfort for the families. I can't imagine the anxiety. They have waited long enough.

 

[cherrybier]

That makes sense as if it’s like 10/11 who say guilty and only 1 or 2 saying not then it would make sense to go back and try and get them to discuss as a lots at stake.

Moo

Judge won't know the count though. Moo

 

[fcavanaugh]

For those not familiar with the Allen charge, snipped from link below:

Purpose and Function of the Allen Charge:

The main goal of an Allen Charge is to urge jurors to re-examine their positions and work towards a consensus. It reminds jurors of their duty to deliberate with an open mind, considering the views of other jurors, and to strive to reach a unanimous decision, if possible, without compromising their honest convictions.

It’s basically asking the jurors in the minority opinion to evaluate their positions carefully. The jurors are reminded that whatever they do they should not violate their own conscience.

*22 states reject the Allen charge including my state but Indiana does have it. I tried to post a link to the list of states but having trouble getting it to copy over cuz ugghh phone.
List easily pulls up on Google though.

Allen Charge: What is it and When is it Used in a Criminal Trial?

The Allen Charge, also known as a Dynamite Charge, is meant to break open a deadlock among jurors. But is it always the right call?

versustexas.com