GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #217

[mrjitty]

@mrjitty,

Bringing this post of yours forward from the last thread. I belive that you are looking for this document:

_Defendant's Response to State's Motion in Limine and Request for Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

M

GUILTY Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #216'

Nov 27, 2024

Does anyone recall what the defence filed (if anything) in response to the States Motion in Limine? I know Judge Gull set it down for hearing, but i don't recall, apart from the 3rd party culpability issues, what the D actually argued in opposition to the states motion.

• mrjitty

• 

Thanks! This is exactly what I (dimly) remembered. I believe the reason why Lawyer Lee and co have this wrong, is they were not around for Franks III and the MIL hearing, and you have to have the context.

The Ds response to the States motion in limine re CAST and Geofence says only this

State's Paragraph "9". The State seeks to limit the defenses ability to challenge the State's geofencing expert, Kevin Horan, based on relevance. The State's request
is overly broad, contains no specific facts which the State is seeking to limit, and usurps the Defendant's Sixth Amendment right to present defense. Therefore, the State's request should be denied;

Now you can go around the houses on whether that is correct, but IMO the Judge's ultimate order only restates the law in any event. In other words, the D was always free to try to admit CAST/Geofence evidence provided it met the standards for admissibility. But they never moved to admit any such evidence. Similarly the D was always free to call SA Horan but never did. Horan was a witness at the MIL hearing and was asked nothing of substance. And the state never called SA Horan at trial, so the Ds submission on this point is moot.

So IMO the D is not going to be able to appeal on this issue, because they cannot show from the record, what relevant evidence the Judge actually excluded. Even in respect of the geofence map, there is IMO, nowhere in the record where the D sought to admit it.

Now we don't know everything that is negotiated pre-trial or in sidebars, but my guess is simply both parties agreed not to touch the hot stove.

In particular, for some reason the state decided not to call SA Horan to prove that the defendants phone number was not in the tower dumps.

Why that is would be interesting to know.

 

[rosesfromangels]

My amateur opinion and speculation is that there are more attacks and murders that RA is associated with. I hope that is being closely examined.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[mrjitty]

The above is from @Arkay ‘s last post from thread #216.

This is very likely why the state did not want the geofencing data brought up. It wasn’t going to benefit the P much more & could make it more likely the defense could potentially use the phone data to cast more doubt against the state’s case. This is just typical & wise weighing of the value of the evidence. If it’s not worth the risk, put in a motion requesting it to be denied with supporting reasons & the judge agreed, from my understanding.

MOO

IMO this is most likely. The CAST stuff didn't help anyone.

The defence only raised it for conspiracy value in Franks III, but that won't work at trial, because it would be immediately revealed the phones belonged to the Ds own witnesses.

IMO Judge Gull was simply preventing them using geofence as a backdoor SODDI. In Franks III, they sought to accuse 3 phone holders, without saying who those people were. But at trial, that won't work. Obviously it would be revealed who the people were. We know one of them was DP and by inference, the second is SH. By further inference, the 3rd one is the older man they saw (also a witness)

On appeal, the defence would need to show how the improper exclusion of this evidence made any odds. But of course it didn't as they even called these people.

M

GUILTY Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #216'

Nov 12, 2024

Further on the misleading geofence narrative being pushed by AB, LL and others

On Day 15 the defence called witness SH who was walking with her boyfriend DP. According to Murdersheet reporting (my post below) DPs phone is one of those in the geofence map. As you can see these witnesses saw nothing, and the geofence adds nothing. The defence wants to pretend these witnesses were "at the crime scene" or were critical witnesses. But they saw nothing and the jury heard that. From the D's own witness.

At 1:56 p.m. the defense called Shelby Hicks. Hicks says she is a realtor and was 23...

• mrjitty

• 
• 

 

[susane7]

The Murder Sheet podcast has recently posted several lengthy follow up episodes on social media activity questioning guilty verdict and the likely outcome of an appeal in the conviction of RA, worth a listen especially revisiting August hearing on Defense Motions.

The last episode is great. Finally, a defense attorney telling the truth and not blinded by Richard Allen’s defense team’s antics and surprised with how much leeway Judge Gull gave to the defense team in some aspects.

 

[susane7]

This is just personal opinion and speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

But I have been here on this thread since the get go as many of you guys have.

IMO this nonsense about GH and the Dr and the white van comes from...in the early days there was a bloke on the tubes called minivan traveller and he was OBSESSED with delphi, gray hughes and a minivan under the bridge.
This caused Gray to talk alot dispelling this dudes nonsense about seeing/imagining a van down at the river in pics. It is unfortunate that little piece of nothingness has been exploited and interchangable with a fact about Brad W coming home.
WHICH NOBODY KNEW THE TIMING OR ....HIS VEHICLE until the trial.

facts matter... and I believe thats where this chinese whisper became part of the proallen brigade.

moo

Oh, I didn't remember that but it's true. I think I saw all or most of videos of Gray on Delphi and I don't remember anyone knowing about a van. The van thing it's some people said there was van in the pic of Abby and Gray debunked it because there wasn't a van. People saw all of the things in the pics, a puppy in the jacket, a sword etc lol. No one knew when Weber arrived at home, just rumors about that he arrived at 3:30, so he wasn't a suspect but no one knew he arrived IN A VAN and before 3:30 pm.

Gray wasn't totally wrong in his theory. His theory was BG wanted the girls in a corner at the south side of the bridge but something happened and they crossed the creek. But he thought the "something happened" was that one of the girls made a run and crossing the creek and BG had to follow the girls through the creek, not that a van arrived. Only the killer would know about the van that scared him and made him crossed the creek with the girls and that's it's corrobarated by Libby's phone movements.

Unfortunately, people are getting it all mixed up and there is a lot of misinformation.

 

[mrjitty]

The last episode is great. Finally, a defense attorney telling the truth and not blinded by Richard Allen’s defense team’s antics and surprised with how much leeway Judge Gull gave to the defense team in some aspects.

This is the macro point that really worries me. Professionals are being highly irresponsible in their coverage of these cases. It erodes trust in institutions, and does a disservice to real injustice. For instance if they really are big mad about prison conditions why are they not focussing their efforts on the people responsible for them? Promotion of conspiracies undermines an important argument here!

 

[mrjitty]

Oh, I didn't remember that but it's true. I think I saw all or most of videos of Gray on Delphi and I don't remember anyone knowing about a van. The van thing it's some people said there was van in the pic of Abby and Gray debunked it because there wasn't a van. People saw all of the things in the pics, a puppy in the jacket, a sword etc lol. No one knew when Weber arrived at home, just rumors about that he arrived at 3:30, so he wasn't a suspect but no one knew he arrived IN A VAN and before 3:30 pm.

Gray wasn't totally wrong in his theory. His theory was BG wanted the girls in a corner at the south side of the bridge but something happened and they crossed the creek. But he thought the "something happened" were one of the girls made a run and crossing the creek and BG had to follow the girls through the creek, not that a van arrived. Only the killer would know about the van that scared him and made him crossed the creek with the girls and that's it's corrobarated by Libby's phone movements.

Unfortunately, people are getting it all mixed up and there is a lot of misinformation.

Yes. And even if GH had speculated around the van, there is no proof Dr W knew about that, let alone decided to note it down as a confession!

Surrogates are trying to suggest that her merely possibly seeing this stuff is enough? No!

 

[Niner]

@Vern - just wanted to say THANKS for the docket update on the last thread!

 

[FrostedGlass]

This is the macro point that really worries me. Professionals are being highly irresponsible in their coverage of these cases. It erodes trust in institutions, and does a disservice to real injustice. For instance if they really are big mad about prison conditions why are they not focussing their efforts on the people responsible for them? Promotion of conspiracies undermines an important argument here!

There is a real big mad about prison conditions but it's a very, very steep uphill climb to change anything. Just look how easy it is in Indiana to get a pre-trial detainee sent to prison for 2 years.

The sad, worrisome thing about that is we never would have known they did such a thing if we had not been following this case.

 

[mrjitty]

The last episode is great. Finally, a defense attorney telling the truth and not blinded by Richard Allen’s defense team’s antics and surprised with how much leeway Judge Gull gave to the defense team in some aspects.

agreed. highly recommend

 

[Willow Knight]

There is a real big mad about prison conditions but it's a very, very steep uphill climb to change anything. Just look how easy it is in Indiana to get a pre-trial detainee sent to prison for 2 years.

The sad, worrisome thing about that is we never would have known they did such a thing if we had not been following this case.

Two years for a detainee being incarcerated was a decision made by the defense team. They could have had him at trial in 60 days.

Our judicial system is set up to not have people sitting in a cell for long length of time. There was a choice, go to trial in 60 days or not.

IMO

Edit to correct word to 'sitting'

 

[Boxer]

My amateur opinion and speculation is that there are more attacks and murders that RA is associated with. I hope that is being closely examined.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Maybe. I think certainly,
MOO, he was on his way to further killing, as he was seatching for horror movies to get back into the mindset.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Two years for a detainee being incarcerated was a decision made by the defense team. They could have had him at trial in 60 days.

Our judicial system is set up to not have people sitting in a cell for long length of time. There was a choice, go to trial in 60 days or not.

IMO

Edit to correct word to 'sitting'

Our judicial system isn't set up for a pre-trial detainee to go to prison before his trial.

It's rare for a murder trial in Indiana to go in 60 days. I'm surprised they got this done as quick as they did. I've been following one out of Grant Co since Jan 2019 and it still hasn't gone to trial.

In RA's case, the judge had a hand in one delay and then there was the drip, drip, drip of discovery by the P.

MOO

 

[k-mac]

There is a real big mad about prison conditions but it's a very, very steep uphill climb to change anything. Just look how easy it is in Indiana to get a pre-trial detainee sent to prison for 2 years.

The sad, worrisome thing about that is we never would have known they did such a thing if we had not been following this case.

prison is not meant to be a 5 star hotel.

Its a punishment.
For being a bad person for hurting others.
To keep society safe.

They get fed, exercised, a clean bed, education and recreational activities.

The basic necessities of life are met.

Here's the thing, I see RA treatment in jail as extremely fair and special actually.
Indulged far more than everyone else.
Isolation gets taken out of context selectively,
it is for the prisoners own safety as well as the rest of the place.

moo

 

[TallCoolOne]

Not to mention the accommodations that were provided to RA were much nicer than the accommodations he arranged for Libby and Abby........

 

[Boxer]

It is unusual to house a pretrial arrestee in a prison. However he was alive at his trial and i dont believe that would be true if he had been housed in a jail.

 

[al66pine]

Stoves?

....The Ds response to the States motion in limine.... says....

Now we don't know everything that is negotiated pre-trial or in sidebars, but my guess is simply both parties agreed not to touch the hot stove....

snipped for focus @mrjitty Thx for your post.

Your description "both parties agreed not to touch the hot stove"
= perfectly expressed.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It is unusual to house a pretrial arrestee in a prison. However he was alive at his trial and i dont believe that would be true if he had been housed in a jail.

He has survived almost 4 months in Cass Co. jail, which is the one that agreed to accept him way back in April 2023.

If it was all about his safety, what changed to motivate this judge to release him to Cass?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Stoves?

snipped for focus @mrjitty Thx for your post.

Your description "both parties agreed not to touch the hot stove"
= perfectly expressed.

Exactly what would that "hot stove" be?
I'm at a loss to imagine why neither one would want to go there.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

He has survived almost 4 months in Cass Co. jail, which is the one that agreed to accept him way back in April 2023.

If it was all about his safety, what changed to motivate this judge to release him to Cass?

My opinion only. Doubt around his guilt had came into play by the time he got to Cass Co jail, thanks to the Franks and heavy defense social media support.
The shock and anger from his original arrest had worn off along with perhaps some bloodlust for revenge of the murder and possible SA of children.
I imagine the reward for his takeout had diminished significantly.
I wonder how that has changed now that he has lost the presumption of innocence. I hope they are are able to keep him safe so he can fulfill his upcoming sentence.
AMO