Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #198

[arielilane]

Would rather jurors drop (bounce) now than later during trial. I can't imagine being a part of this courageous group of jurors and alternates. Their civic duty is commended. The commitment away from home, the horrid crime scene photos of young (children) girls and horrific testimony will not be an easy task(s). jmo

 

[TTF14]

There is evidence of a sexual motive, IMO. Two young girls, kidnapped by a stranger, stripped and stabbed to death.

What are the other possible motives for that? Can anyone name some other possible motives?

It wasn't a robbery. It wasn't road rage. What was it if it wasn't sexually motivated?

Well, one option is it wasn’t RA. MY OPINION ONLY.

 

[gregjrichards]

.

Doesn't match him. Maybe it's not even human hair.

JMO

If I remember correctly, RA’s family had a cat and I have wondered if he had any cat hair on him. All of us here who have or have had cats know it is so easy to get cat hair on you somewhere, no matter how often you groom them.

It is hard to believe that the trial is here. I’m thinking of Abby and Liberty’s loved ones. I can’t imagine what they are going through. All of the trial updates are greatly appreciated.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

100%. I am old enough to have followed trials where the sketches looked like... stick ppl, or a pair of non-descript eyes, or so radically different one could wonder if the perp was not a shape-shifter. Sketches are what they are, impressions of a memory, and I think there is enough data and common sense to justify the differences.

All MOO

Just a question to all WSers...
And just jumping off this post...

Interesting that the sketches may have such impact on the trial...

As you have said... common sense implies that sketches are merely "tools" to try to find people who have conducted crimes...
Inherent in these sketches is ambiguity due to many factors...

My main question is...
Has there ever been a/some cases where sketches have been used for evidentiary value in court...

And/or... has any trial outcome ever been decided on sketch renderings?

Just some thoughts/questions/JMO...

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Niner here are the new filings today

Witness and/or Exhibit List Filed Defendant's Notice of Submission of Supplemental Witness and Exhibit List to the State Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/13/2024​

Motion In Limine Filed Motion in Limine - sketches.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/14/2024​

Motion In Limine Filed Motion in Limine - IPAS.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/14/2024​

Motion Filed Verified Motion for Certificate of Appearance Regarding Out-of-State Witness Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/15/2024​

​

 

[Tealgrove]

Thank you for this post. Well said.
I am stunned by posts still questioning if SA was a motive.

Aren’t we all.

 

[shonyakay]

I wondered if this would be a point of contention for the trial. I think the juror's deserve to know how and why two radically different sketches came about.

I want to know how close Sarah Carbaugh (first sketch) was to the muddy/bloody man she saw.

We know Betsy Blair (second sketch) was approximately 50 feet away from the man she saw standing on platform One on the High bridge. Was the man even looking in her direction or looking down into the creek? Did she head to the High Bridge and just stand there idle looking at the man or did she just glance in the man's direction for a brief second and then turn around and continue her walk? I think the latter.

Neither woman wanted to contribute to the sketch but were convinced by LE to do so.

I want to know the dates of when these women were first questioned by LE and when they provided the information from the sketches.

The fact they both witnessed a white male with a medium build (that cannot rule out RA) is just another piece of circumstantial evidence against him on top of all of the direct evidence and the voluminous other circumstantial evidence against him.

 

[Inthedetails]

I am seeing references to how RA was "interrupted", but I can no locate the details of how he was interrupted, or where, or when or by who. Can anyone please provide details? Thanks!

It's unknown what the interruption was and we've been keeping busy speculating.

I think he heard someone nearby and/or the girls resisted, but those are simply guesses.

jmo

 

[TTF14]

I have been through jury selection more than once too and never experienced this.
The state I live in does not allow “mini opening statements”. Arguments and evidence don’t start till the trial.
I think allowing these type of statements during jury selection is profoundly stupid. Anything can be said regardless of its truth. How confused the jury must be by the time the trial even begins.

I think I have only seen it once before. But Judge Gull must have a good reason for allowing it. In my opinion.<modsnip>

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

If I am understanding correctly, the state is calling the murders sexually motivated. My interpretation of that would be that he had pedophilic tendencies and intended to either engage with A&L in a sexual manner or film/ watch them together.

Pedophilia refers to a sexual attraction, primary or exclusively, for sexually undeveloped children. That would not include Abby and Libby.
Calling it sexually motivated murder means that the person's motives/urges are to achieve sexual gratification via violence.

Pedophilia

Pedophilia is an ongoing sexual attraction to pre-pubertal children. It is a paraphilia, a condition in which a person's sexual arousal and gratification depends on objects, activities, or even situations that are considered atypical.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Vern]

I had to go look. I don’t see a mention of the sketches in the PCA.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

True.

The eye witnesses likened the individual they saw to being dressed like the BG in the video the girls took.

Those witnesses assisted with sketchs, but the sketches have zero bearing upon what BG was wearing (that's what they actually recognized) - the only man any of them encountered that day on the trail (and passed by on the road). The BG who was there at the same time and place as them and who admitted to crossing paths with at least three of them; who was also self-admittedly wearing very similar clothing to that video'd clothing, at the same time amd place that RA places himself there and at the time the crimes occurred.

 

[TTF14]

I have been through jury selection more than once too and never experienced this.
The state I live in does not allow “mini opening statements”. Arguments and evidence don’t start till the trial.
I think allowing these type of statements during jury selection is profoundly stupid. Anything can be said regardless of its truth. How confused the jury must be by the time the trial even begins.

I think I have only seen it once before. But Judge Gull must have a good reason for allowing it. In my opinion. <modsnip>

 

[shonyakay]

snipped

I wonder what "interrupted" him? Sounds or sights of other people? Did Libby's phone ring or make a notification noise? Second thoughts? Did the girls resist more than he expected? Scream? Tell him Libby's dad was on his way? Did he notice his gun wasn't working?

And so odd go across the water - it was a warm'ish day but the water would've been very cold.

When he was "watching the fish," was he confirming to himself where and how to cross the water? Could he see the final crime scene from the bridge?

jmo

Great questions.

If he was standing on platform One looking down at fish he would be facing the opposite side of the bridge from where the girls' were discovered.

As far as him seeing the crime scene from the bridge? Not likely. The creek bends to the right there and where they were killed would be very difficult to see from the bridge imo.

 

[TTF14]

@Niner here are the new filings today

Witness and/or Exhibit List Filed Defendant's Notice of Submission of Supplemental Witness and Exhibit List to the State Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/13/2024​

Motion In Limine Filed Motion in Limine - sketches.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/14/2024​

Motion In Limine Filed Motion in Limine - IPAS.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/14/2024​

Motion Filed Verified Motion for Certificate of Appearance Regarding Out-of-State Witness Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/15/2024​

​

I wonder why the State waited so long to file that motion. My opinion only.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Pedophilia refers to a sexual attraction, primary or exclusively, for sexually undeveloped children. That would not include Abby and Libby.
Calling it sexually motivated murder means that the person's motives/urges are to achieve sexual gratification via violence.

Pedophilia

Pedophilia is an ongoing sexual attraction to pre-pubertal children. It is a paraphilia, a condition in which a person's sexual arousal and gratification depends on objects, activities, or even situations that are considered atypical.

www.psychologytoday.com

Yes, you are correct. I could not recall the proper terminology for someone that is drawn toward young teens.

 

[Vern]

@Niner

Sorry for my slowness; just transported myself from home to the cottage so have been offline for a bit this afternoon

One up and is attached (Dr. Wala). I'm still tracking at least 3 more from yesterday and today that need to be published up and any decisions on crime scene visit etc by Judge Gull not yet uploaded. Will continue tracking, posting and tagging you as they appear.

_Verified Motion for Certificate of Appearance Regarding Out-of-State Witness.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Tealgrove]

Just trying to think through why we wouldn’t think the motive was S.A.

Why abduct/kidnap two young girls and force them down a hill where no one can see them?

Why was one girl naked from the waist down at one point?

Why was the other girl found naked?

Explain how a naked teen murdered in cold blood is not considered a sexual murder?

Please…go ahead…make it something other than sexual.

I’m listening.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I wonder why the State waited so long to file that motion. My opinion only.

Which one? The sketches or IPAS?

 

[Teche]

Well I do like Green, but I love Pink.. wonder what that says about me? I am not even sure how things got green on my emblem.. I am guessing the J is for Just Trish, but the green.. is that random? I don't think I picked it.

I tend to believe it’s random because I don't ever remember choosing a color, but my favorite colors are pink and green.

 

[Melted]

Also, the hair found in AW hand that does not match RA could simply be explained as a single strand of hair picked up from the pavement. jmo

What pavement?