Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #199

[TTF14]

In his opening statement, did McLeland say the girls cross the creek?

 

[iamshadow21]

Does anyone here understand bullets at all?

If an unspent bullet is compared to several spent bullets is it really scientifically possible to identify them being one and the same or even from the same batch or gun.

I am aware there are different opinions about bullets and forensic science in crime cases.

For me, however, I would think an unspent bullet would be a bit different to a fired bullet.

Does anyone know anything about bullets because I really don't.

JMO MOO JMT

What they would be comparing are tool marks left when a round is ejected from a gun. So, in a handgun like this, when the slide is racked when a round is chambered, that round is ejected. The mechanism will leave marks on the outside of the round, even though it has not been fired.

MOO

 

[KSwizzle]

Just my opinion and observation but it seems like the state hasn't come out with a slam dunk here, I do think he did it but I'm getting wary as to the state having more damaging evidence than what was stated in the PCA, I hope I'm wrong

 

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847336485726670983

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847336489983602968

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847336493569782217

RA himself stated, before he was ever arrested, that he was on the bridge between 1:30-3:30.
Edit: so he was on the bridge when they were.

 

[Seattle1]

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/

 

[MassGuy]

Does anyone here understand bullets at all?

If an unspent bullet is compared to several spent bullets is it really scientifically possible to identify them being one and the same or even from the same batch or gun.

I am aware there are different opinions about bullets and forensic science in crime cases.

For me, however, I would think an unspent bullet would be a bit different to a fired bullet.

Does anyone know anything about bullets because I really don't.

JMO MOO JMT

There are a few different ways of doing this.

One is that a fired bullet is recovered, and compared to one fired in a ballistics lab from the gun they believe it to be (when you see them shooting into water). The markings on the bullets are compared.

When you don't have a bullet (the tip of the round that actually travels through the barrel), the next move is to compare bullet casings (the metal things you see laying on the ground after a shooting). Those casings have marks from both the firing pin (which strikes the primer and creates the explosion that launches the bullet), and the extractor, which ejects the bullet casing out of the gun.

In this case, the round wasn't fired, so all they can compare is the marks from the extractor. When a magazine is inserted into an empty gun (people also incorrectly call this a clip), you have to rack the slide (coc k the gun) to put a round in the chamber. So presumably, the killer had already done that, forgot, and then did it again to scare the girls into complying. This would have ejected an unspent round onto the ground.

Here's more:

"When the slide comes back like this, a round is extracted from the chamber with what's called an extractor, which is like a little claw that actually hooks on to this protruding rear edge of the cartridge, pulls it out, and then the injectors sort of kicks it out of the ejection port," said Guy Relford, Indianapolis gun expert and defense attorney. "So that claw, that extractor, grabs onto that little edge on the back of the cartridge and can leave a little mark on the shell casing, even on an unspent round through the process of extracting the unspent round out of the gun."

Gun expert and defense attorney break down new details in Delphi murder case

One of the largest areas of focus in the Delphi investigation is a single unspent bullet found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.

www.wrtv.com

 

[iamshadow21]

There are a few different ways of doing this.

One is that a fired bullet is recovered, and compared to one fired in a ballistics lab from the gun they believe it to be (when you see them shooting into water). The markings on the bullet are compared.

When you don't have a bullet (the part that forms the tip of the round), the next move is to compare bullet casings (the metal things you see laying on the ground after a shooting). Those casings have marks from both the firing pin (which strikes the primer and creates the explosion that launches the bullet), and the extractor, which ejects the bullet casing out of the gun.

In this case, the round wasn't fired, so all they can compare is the marks from the extractor. When a magazine is inserted into an empty gun (people also incorrectly call this a clip), you have to rack the slide (*advertiser censored* the gun) to put a round in the chamber. So presumably, the killer had already done that, forgot, and then did it again to scare the girls into complying. This would have ejected an unspent round onto the ground.

Here's more:

"When the slide comes back like this, a round is extracted from the chamber with what's called an extractor, which is like a little claw that actually hooks on to this protruding rear edge of the cartridge, pulls it out, and then the injectors sort of kicks it out of the ejection port," said Guy Relford, Indianapolis gun expert and defense attorney. "So that claw, that extractor, grabs onto that little edge on the back of the cartridge and can leave a little mark on the shell casing, even on an unspent round through the process of extracting the unspent round out of the gun."

Gun expert and defense attorney break down new details in Delphi murder case

One of the largest areas of focus in the Delphi investigation is a single unspent bullet found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.

www.wrtv.com

You said it better than me! I defer to your more complete knowledge.

 

[ClearAhead]

Wow!

So the DT is sticking to their alternate theory that the girls were whisked away and then brought back at approx 4:30 am?

Thats all they’ve got? They really want to go that route?

Oh boy!!!

If so there should’ve been a trail of blood all the way from the murder site to where the bodies were discovered. I think the alternate scenario does more harm than good in terms of credibility of the defence. IMO it’s not required if their theory is that RA had already left the trails by the time the girls arrived. Better to keep it simple JMO

 

[SouthEnd]

Were LE required to be honest with the general public as to whether or not they had DNA?

No. There was a gag order. Why would they have to tell the public before the trial if they had DNA or not? LE only reveals a few details of the crime to family, as long as they don't compromise the investigation, and of course they are free to reveal what they believe is useful during public appeals.

 

[Seattle1]

Redirecting...

RULE 20. PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS

(a) The court shall instruct the jury before opening statements by reading the appropriate instructions which shall include at least the following:

(1) the issues for trial;

(2) the applicable burdens of proof;

(3) the credibility of witnesses and the manner of weighing the testimony to be received;

(4) that each juror may take notes during the trial and paper shall be provided, but note taking shall not interfere with the attention to the testimony;

(5) the personal knowledge procedure under Rule 24;

(6) the order in which the case will proceed;

(7) that jurors, including alternates, may seek to ask questions of the witnesses by submission of questions in writing.

(8) that jurors, including alternates, are permitted to discuss the evidence among themselves in the jury room during recesses from trial when all are present, as long as they reserve judgment about the outcome of the case until deliberations commence. The court shall admonish jurors not to discuss the case with anyone other than fellow jurors during the trial.

 

[ClearAhead]

They did test it and found it came from a female member of the family.

No need to test any further. Or was BG really a woman???

Oh.. please.... defense is spit balling.

This may’ve been where the genetic testing expenditure of $20k comes into play that was recently noted. Then after it’s determined to belong to a member of the German family, further investigation is not warranted out of respect and consideration for the female family members. The family has gone through enough cruel and spiteful SM accusations already IMO.

 

[SouthEnd]

Does anyone here understand bullets at all?

If an unspent bullet is compared to several spent bullets is it really scientifically possible to identify them being one and the same or even from the same batch or gun.

I am aware there are different opinions about bullets and forensic science in crime cases.

For me, however, I would think an unspent bullet would be a bit different to a fired bullet.

Does anyone know anything about bullets because I really don't.

JMO MOO JMT

I am glad you asked!! The murder sheet had a number of interviews with experts on toolmark analysis: re unspend bullets.

My terribly not-nuanced summary: When the bullet is cycled through a gun (lets say a sig sauer?) a little metal thingy presses on the bullet leaving behind a mark that COULD be unique enough to be matched with other bullets ejected from the exact same gun. Is it open to a battle of experts? Yes, I believe so.

Obviously I am not an expert so this is all MOO and interpretation. Please have a listen to the experts below:

A Conversation About Ballistics from a Forensic Analyst's Perspective | Murder Sheet Podcast

www.everand.com

The Delphi Murders: Conversations with a Firearms Expert and a Professional Investigator

In this episode of the Murder Sheet, we spoke to a firearms expert about the bullet evidence against Richard Allen. We also spoke to a professional investigator with years of experience working with law enforcement and defense attorneys. Please send tips and questions to [email protected].

art19.com

The Delphi Murders: Conversations with a Firearms Expert and a Forensic Examiner

The Murder Sheet interviewed a forensic examiner and another firearms expert about the publicly-released information in the case of Richard Allen. Allen stands accused of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. One of the significant pieces of evidence in the probable cause affidavit...

art19.com

Going Ballistic with Radley Balko

A Chicago judge recently became the first judge in the country to bar the use of ballistics matching testimony in a criminal trial. What inspired him to make that ruling? What does it mean for other cases-- like Delphi-- where ballistics testimony seems to play a key role? To get some answers...

art19.com

EBM: Editing to add I hadn't seen some of the other excellent responses, @MassGuy response was an excellent summary of my understanding.

 

[TTF14]

No. There was a gag order. Why would they have to tell the public before the trial if they had DNA or not? LE only reveals a few details of the crime to family, as long as they don't compromise the investigation, and of course they are free to reveal what they believe is useful during public appeals.

There wasn't a gag order until several years into the investigation. investigators were asked myriad times before that if there was DNA.

As always, JMO.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847352597461528870

 

[scapa]

I didn't get this from that hair issue - I got that they believe the investigation itself was lacking if the hair wasn't tested at the beginning when it was first found. That's a glaring issue imo - why did they NOT test it? At what point DID it get tested and by whom? EG: did the Defense finally have it tested in preparation for trial or did the State realize this glaring omission and test it themselves at some point? Pretty big deal here imo.

Can't comment on any SOD(s)DI theories, but I do suspect based on what we've discussed for years here that there's scope to argue that the original investigation was imperfect-to-shoddy, and that after being stalled for years amid constant pressure to solve RA appears as a convenient solution.

** NOTE ** This is one argument among many. I do NOT believe that RA is being scapegoated here, but a lack of strong evidence beyond what we've seen might make his BARD guilt a harder sell. And I think many here might agree that this has long been regarded as a flawed investigation, right from the moment the search was called off that first night, whether or not that was the right call from the POV of logistics, safety, etc.

This may well prove to be a very strong case against RA. But I'm not sure it was or ever will be the slam dunk many might have hoped for. Definitely one in which the trial itself really, really, really matters.

Again, just MOO, IMO, etc.

 

[Trebor5591]

What they would be comparing are tool marks left when a round is ejected from a gun. So, in a handgun like this, when the slide is racked when a round is chambered, that round is ejected. The mechanism will leave marks on the outside of the round, even though it has not been fired.

MOO

and the ejection marks are not left on the projectile part of the bullet--the ejection marks on an unfired round are left on the metallic case part of the bullet, which is the part the gunpowder resides. JMO

 

[MiniMoo]

You said it better than me! I defer to your more complete knowledge.

Awesome. Thanks for that!

That unspent bullet found at the crime scene in Delphi is what the State seems to be counting on in this trial.

I am now wondering how many other cases involving unspent bullets have had success in convicting someone in a trial (USA).

JMO JMT

 

[vls12345]

Redirecting...

RULE 20. PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTIONS

(a) The court shall instruct the jury before opening statements by reading the appropriate instructions which shall include at least the following:

(1) the issues for trial;

(2) the applicable burdens of proof;

(3) the credibility of witnesses and the manner of weighing the testimony to be received;

(4) that each juror may take notes during the trial and paper shall be provided, but note taking shall not interfere with the attention to the testimony;

(5) the personal knowledge procedure under Rule 24;

(6) the order in which the case will proceed;

(7) that jurors, including alternates, may seek to ask questions of the witnesses by submission of questions in writing.

(8) that jurors, including alternates, are permitted to discuss the evidence among themselves in the jury room during recesses from trial when all are present, as long as they reserve judgment about the outcome of the case until deliberations commence. The court shall admonish jurors not to discuss the case with anyone other than fellow jurors during the trial.

Thanks for the info, especially #7. (And thanks to others who also answered my question.)

And, wow, on #8! I haven’t heard of jurors being able to discuss evidence prior to the case resting and being turned over to the jury. Is that common in Indiana?

 

[Vaderman]

This might be a stupid question, but does the gag order remain in effect now that the trial is underway? Could the defense/prosecution hold press conferences/remarks to the press outside of the trial hours discussing facts of the case? Or are the still barred from that?

 

[photographer4]

No. There was a gag order. Why would they have to tell the public before the trial if they had DNA or not? LE only reveals a few details of the crime to family, as long as they don't compromise the investigation, and of course they are free to reveal what they believe is useful during public appeals.

There was a gag order in place while police were investigating up to the point when RA was arrested? I've never heard this before, has anyone? Is there a link that supports this? My understanding was there was no gag order until RA was arrested???

I'm asking if LE told the general public that they had DNA before RA was arrested - if they did so and don't have DNA, why would they have lied? My question stemmed from someone upthread who asked if LE had said previously that they had DNA - which this article supports: https://fox59.com/indiana-news/poli...ew-sheds-further-light-on-the-delphi-murders/

WHy say they have it if they don't, except or unless to scare a guilty party??? MOOOO