Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Trebor5591]

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

Another thing about the bullet--she shell casing is a perfect place to pick up fingerprints. Was this discovered shell casing dusted for prints? IF so, what was the results. So much about this investigation is still unknown. I wonder why?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Do you have any proof to suggest it was switched by corrupt LE to frame RA?

Because the prosecution has delivered the evidence and testimony that establish it was discovered, photographed and taken as evidence. There is no credible doubt here.

MOO

I don't know about corrupt LE and framing... all I do know is 50 folks in the state of Indiana have been wrongfully convicted. I live here and don't ever want to see that happen again.

I haven't seen testimony of what you're saying. I've seen one of the LE say he saw the cartridge but did not disturb it. I know pics were taken of the visible part of it while it was in the ground.

Can you link to the testimony of who actually bagged it?

I think anyone who might sit in RA's chair would want, at least, a picture of the entire cartridge.

 

[SouthEnd]

I don't know about corrupt LE and framing... all I do know is 50 folks in the state of Indiana have been wrongfully convicted. I live here and don't ever want to see that again.

I haven't seen testimony of what you're saying. I've seen one of the LE say he saw it but did not disturb it. I know pics were taken of the visible part of it while it was in the ground.

Can you link to the testimony of who actually bagged it?

I think anyone who might sit in RA's chair would want, at least, a picture of the entire cartridge.

RE: Wrongful convictions. How many of those cases were ones that had the attention of every single media outlet in the country?

Wrongful convictions IMO fester in cases that get little attention and/or tunnel vision.

Neither applies to this case, in the slightest.

Saying that false convictions exist so we shouldn't trust CoC is like saying people who drink water die, so we shouldn't drink water.

All MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RE: Wrongful convictions. How many of those cases were ones that had the attention of every single media outlet in the country?

Wrongful convictions IMO fester in cases that get little attention and/or tunnel vision.

Neither applies to this case, in the slightest.

Saying that false convictions exist so we shouldn't trust CoC is like saying people who drink water die, so we shouldn't drink water.

All MOO

Thank you for offering me your opinion.
Please understand that mine are not solely based on the cartridge-related issues.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't know about corrupt LE and framing... all I do know is 50 folks in the state of Indiana have been wrongfully convicted. I live here and don't ever want to see that happen again.

I haven't seen testimony of what you're saying. I've seen one of the LE say he saw the cartridge but did not disturb it. I know pics were taken of the visible part of it while it was in the ground.

Can you link to the testimony of who actually bagged it?

I think anyone who might sit in RA's chair would want, at least, a picture of the entire cartridge.

Where I am struggling is AFAIK, no one at the trial has alleged anywhere the bullet was left in the ground for days after it was photographed. Only BM said this which was how this rumour got started. So where did that rumour come from?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Where I am struggling is AFAIK, no one at the trial has alleged anywhere the bullet was left in the ground for days after it was photographed. Only BM said this which was how this rumour got started. So where did that rumour come from?

I haven't read everything she's ever written but what I have read leads me to believe LE are her sources. Do you think she colluded with one of the attorneys?

When you think of how chaotic and stressful the crime scene was, IMO it would be understandable for the collection of the cartridge to have been overlooked that day, especially if they waited for the girls' bodies to be removed.

What are your thoughts on the investigators going back to the scene Friday evening? I didn't see anything in the news about them carrying out branches that night.

 

[mrjitty]

I haven't read everything she's ever written but what I have read leads me to believe LE are her sources. Do you think she colluded with one of the attorneys?

When you think of how chaotic and stressful the crime scene was, IMO it would be understandable for the collection of the cartridge to have been overlooked that day, especially if they waited for the girls' bodies to be removed.

What are your thoughts on the investigators going back to the scene Friday evening? I didn't see anything in the news about them carrying out branches that night.

We know the branches were taken in the following days as it was confirmed yesterday.

But AFAIK, nowhere has anyone at trial said the bullet was recovered days later, including the Defence.

IMO

 

[SouthEnd]

I haven't read everything she's ever written but what I have read leads me to believe LE are her sources. Do you think she colluded with one of the attorneys?

When you think of how chaotic and stressful the crime scene was, IMO it would be understandable for the collection of the cartridge to have been overlooked that day, especially if they waited for the girls' bodies to be removed.

What are your thoughts on the investigators going back to the scene Friday evening? I didn't see anything in the news about them carrying out branches that night.

Re: branches (rsbm):
Datzman testified that the sticks and branches on the bodies “”were of no evidentiary value” and did not have blood on them, yet they were later collected weeks later and placed in evidence storage. Some of the sticks were apparently in a triangle formation.

Crime Scene Photos Shown During Delphi Trial Day Three

DELPHI, Ind. -- Graphic, bloody crime scene photos showing the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were the focal point of testimony Monday in the Delphi murders trial.

wibc.com

I have no thoughts on the investigation apart from 'nothing I heard under oath thus far sounds like it's breaking any LE protocols'. IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

It is totally illogical that LE intended to frame RA since the day of the murders and then what, held off almost 6 years before unearthing that misfiled interview.

When the trial is over and done, there’s a chance the jury feels the evidence against RA is too weak to convict. But this continual insinuation RA is at the centre of a vast conspiracy is wearing thin. JMO

 

[Vern]

I'd love to know who was BM's source which led to her promoting the bullet conspiracy. It feels very coordinated to me between the speculation in motions about lack of COC and her claiming it was found later. Hey presto you have a conspiracy about the key piece of evidence - none of which turns out to be true. It was found immediately. It was.photographed in situ. Multiple COC witnesses exist.

Will we eventually learn the source was one of the D surrogates who has continuously promoted COC stories?

MOO

We also have this excellent post from a member that highlights yesterday's testimony ... and some specific questions asked by the Jury to a sworn witness with his 'under oath' responses.

The bullet was found, photographed and collected at the crime scene and submitted into evidence.

Any suggestion otherwise amounts to an allegation that CST Datzman committed perjury while testifying under oath.

...

1 hr 12 min: juror questions to Datzman1) would there be any reason that the bullet submitted in evidence be different from the bullet collected at the crime. Answer: no. 2) Is there a process by which the jury can be ensured they are seeing evidene that has not been tampered with. The witness then explained the chain of custody concept and process.

1 hr 17 min: crime scene investigator Olehay said that when he was there, the bodies were displaying rigor mortis and were cool to the touch.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Three: The Crime Scene

We discuss the third day of Richard Allen's trial, which saw the jury view graphic crime scene pictures. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC.

art19.com

 

[Betty P]

Another thing about the bullet--she shell casing is a perfect place to pick up fingerprints. Was this discovered shell casing dusted for prints? IF so, what was the results. So much about this investigation is still unknown. I wonder why?

Details of the investigation are only now being revealed because the judge needed to issue a gag order. The defense (as many do these days) early on demonstrated a compulsion to release information to the public in order to taint the potential jury pool. Due to the use of so much social media these days, gag orders are on the rise. Its the only way to guarantee a fair trial.

The public will learn the details as the trial continues. The best thing you can do is read news stories carefully. Some reporters are putting a slant on the story. They're making the public think nothing was done to test evidence, etc. during the investigation by reporting only responses from one CSI investigator, when the work was actually done by other CSI investigators. It helps to read the whole story, including all the testimony from all of the witnesses and investigators. JMO

 

[Betty P]

It is totally illogical that LE intended to frame RA since the day of the murders and then what, held off almost 6 years to find his misfiled interview?

When the trial is over and done, there’s a chance the jury feels the evidence against RA is too weak to convict. But this continual insinuation RA is at the centre of a vast conspiracy is wearing thin. JMO

Agree. RA wasn't even on their radar until recently. If they were going to "frame" him, they would have done it years ago.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Re: branches (rsbm):
Datzman testified that the sticks and branches on the bodies “”were of no evidentiary value” and did not have blood on them, yet they were later collected weeks later and placed in evidence storage. Some of the sticks were apparently in a triangle formation.

Crime Scene Photos Shown During Delphi Trial Day Three

DELPHI, Ind. -- Graphic, bloody crime scene photos showing the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were the focal point of testimony Monday in the Delphi murders trial.

wibc.com

I have no thoughts on the investigation apart from 'nothing I heard under oath thus far sounds like it's breaking any LE protocols'. IMO

Ok, so we know the investigators did not go back to the scene on Friday to collect branches.

It just struck me as odd that there was no blood on the sticks. How can that possibly be, considering they were placed on the girls' bloody bodies by a person who was said to look like he slaughtered a pig?

 

[m00c0w]

I assume the conspiracy is because they didn't photograph identifying features, the bullet in evidence could have been switched years later by corrupt officers who searched RAs house. That would involve them cycling a round through his gun then doing the switch.

Surely there would have been much better ways to frame him?

Let’s not forget that this bullet would have been stored in ISP evidence, so we’re now extending the conspiracy from locals wanting to set a guy up to close a case, to people at ISP also being corrupt and complicit.

That is, unless we’re going with a theory that someone planted the bullet… and waited 5 years for RA to finally get framed for unknown reasons…

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

It is totally illogical that LE intended to frame RA since the day of the murders and then what, held off almost 6 years before unearthing that misfiled interview.

When the trial is over and done, there’s a chance the jury feels the evidence against RA is too weak to convict. But this continual insinuation RA is at the centre of a vast conspiracy is wearing thin. JMO

Agree. Completely.

jmo

 

[Seattle1]

It's mind-boggling that his wife did not recognize his gait, distinct coat, cap, gun pouch, and appearance when he came home that night. He had to be covered in blood after the frenzied attack on Libby. Did he go straight to the washing machine? His family didn't notice changes like long beard, short hair, unusual behaviour that day?

I wonder if his daughter noticed the changes? Is she on the witness list?

 

[SouthEnd]

Ok, so we know the investigators did not go back to the scene on Friday to collect branches.

It just struck me as odd that there was no blood on the sticks. How can that possibly be, considering they were placed on the girls' bloody bodies by a person who was said to look like he slaughtered a pig?

Arterial spray is directional. IMO the majority of it hit his body at an angle, which means only a portion/only one of the gloves were splashed. Plus according to the timelines the perp had plenty of time after committing the murders and before being seen, for the blood to partially dry before moving the branches or, hear me out, he instinctively wiped his bloody gloves on his clothes first (that's what I do when my hands are wet) and so minimal transfer happened.

I take the opinion of the LE to mean 'there was no blood on the branches to indicate they were the murder weapons/that they were there pre-mortem'. Not no blood as in - there was not a single smudge on them.

That's the simplest possible explanation IMO. The other explanation would be that one perp was there covered in blood, walking around for a witness to see him, and then there was a second one who no one saw, like some kind of spirit only summoned to do did all branch-moving, only to disappear again.

All MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

Other tidbits I jotted down from tonight's podcast (they sound so exhausted...and Kevin is starting to cough..I don't think they can keep going at this pace, staying out there all night in order to get a seat).

Putting my time markings as they come up on Podcast Addict app:

28 min: Jurors had a question after the first witness, Giancola, spoke. They wanted to know what electronics of Libby's he had gotten and was trying to look at (back when they initially thought the girls were just missing). He said her iPad, but it was passcode locked and he couldn't get in at the time. He could see lots of notifications popping up as people tried to contact Libby on her phone and he wrote those numbers down so he could call them.

48 min: the second witness, crime scene photographer Page said that the jeans Abby was wearing appeared wet to the knee when asked how wet they were.

1 hr 4 min: when Baldwin asked crime scene technician Datzman if he would agree this was a very odd crime scene, and he replied, "No."

1 hr 6 min: when Datzman told Baldwin that if SA is suspected, they do not want to take core body temps at the crime scene because they do not want to puncture the skin/body and possibly disrupt any SA evidence.

1 hr 9 min: they did recover a fresh looking JJ cup with a straw (west end of bridge where public trail ends), a power drink (from same general area), and cigarette butts that looked fresh (from same general area). At this point in the testimony, it is not clear what DNA testing was done.

1 hr 11: Luttrell asked Datzman if he had EVER videotaped someone picking up a piece of evidence and putting it in a container, and the witness said no.

1 hr 12 min: juror questions to Datzman1) would there be any reason that the bullet submitted in evidence be different from the bullet collected at the crime. Answer: no. 2) Is there a process by which the jury can be ensured they are seeing evidene that has not been tampered with. The witness then explained the chain of custody concept and process.

1 hr 17 min: crime scene investigator Olehay said that when he was there, the bodies were displaying rigor mortis and were cool to the touch.

Bolded sentences for response.

This just happens to address the discussion here a few days ago regarding determination of time of death. This was testimony explains the reason body temperature wasn’t taken at the crime scene, yet another kibosh of the insinuation of a shoddy murder investigation.

Just adding from MS, further to this, Baldwin pipes up and suggests his mother used to take his temperature from under his armpit. His comment is clearly inappropriate and insensitive but possibly his intention is to add some lighthearted humour to an otherwise high stress day. However the haphazard method he suggested of determining internal body temp is totally inconsistent to the precision expected by the D in the collection of the bullet.

Demonstrating IMO the lack of sincerity in their concerns. JMO

 

[SouthEnd]

I wonder if his daughter noticed the changes? Is she on the witness list?

We don't know anything about the daughter, which, since that appears to be her wishes, I am grateful for.

As for KA not noticing... the more we see/hear from her, and the more I believe will be revealed in the recorded jail calls. Well. Her personality type and her reactions seem to answer my burning question 'would the person closest to the perp not notice the changes?! The clothes?!'

IMO KA seems to be a very strong-minded person, and the moment she decided RA is factually innocent, she made herself blind to any clues. Which made for the perfect storm; if the perp's relatives were different people, if he had an ex wife who was not committed to him, any close coworkers he was in dispute with, he would have been tipped in years and years ago.

All MOO.

 

[Seattle1]

I feel that if there were indeed "very powerful" statements coming straight from RA, we would have heard more about the details in the opening statement, which we did not, did we?

The prosecution's opening was very brief -- their opening is not evidence whereas confessed statements direct from RA are. Let RA's words speak loudly when entered into evidence.