Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[WildHuncher]

Honestly, I respect what the defense is doing here. It frustrates the hell out of me of course, but they're the arguments I'd expect them to make in order to discredit the prosecution case. If you can't win with facts, stretch them as much as you can. Mislead, misdirect, confuse.

Let's throw out a scenario that an officer bizarrely unholstered his gun, cycled a round, and left it there. It works in theory, because (if I'm not mistaken), the sheriff's department does use the same caliber ammunition that was found at the scene.

Let's plant the seed that the investigation was sloppy, by implying that foreign hair was found in Libby's hand. That works because a hair was in fact found, albeit apparently female and almost certainly unrelated to the girls' killer.

Both of those are stretches, especially the former, but that's nothing like the stretch they're making by suggesting that the girls were removed from the scene, murdered, and bizarrely returned. This one I don't like, because very few people would fall for it, as it's as crazy as laughable. That one does work on some level though, as they can claim that searchers should have seen their bodies that night.

Yes, the burden is on the prosecution. But the defense has to do all they can to prevent them from reaching that burden. I'm sure as things progress they'll be able to get some legitimate shots, in addition to the more outlandish attempts at that.

I could go with that, except..

It’s not a game.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I think the defense would profit by trying to convince the jury that the toolmark evidence doesn't show us that the unspent cartridge was cycled by the defendants gun to the exclusion of all guns of the same make and model. There's your reasonable doubt about that particular piece of evidence.

Trying to say that LE left the round at the crime scene is just the wrong way to give the jury reasonable doubt. Because it's simply not reasonable. JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

I think the defense would profit by trying to convince the jury that the toolmark evidence doesn't show us that the unspent cartridge was cycled by the defendants gun to the exclusion of all guns of the same make and model. There's your reasonable doubt about that particular piece of evidence.

Trying to say that LE left the round at the crime scene is just the wrong way to give the jury reasonable doubt. Because it's simply not reasonable. JMO.

That's what I find interesting. If you have a strong argument that can refute the tool mark evidence, then there's no reason to basically say "by the way, that round wasn't left by the killer."

So I think that probably bodes well for the prosecution in that regard.

 

[MassGuy]

I could go with that, except..

It’s not a game.

I see it as a game. A high stakes chess match within the confines of the law.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Do we know the make and model of RA's gun that LE compared to the recovered cartridge? I've only found being described as a .40 caliber pistol.

I was curious if it was a popular Glock or a less common gun.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Believe a Sig Sauer P226

Thanks but I need a link for research purposes.

 

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[snooptroop88]

Thanks but I need a link for research purposes.

Link for Sig Sauer:

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

 

[MassGuy]

Thanks but I need a link for research purposes.

It’s in the AA.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Link for Sig Sauer:

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

There you go, thank you very much.

 

[MassGuy]

Link for Sig Sauer:

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

Wow, this is a really good article. I found this in particular, very interesting:

There are lots of studies which back up Monturo’s certainty. A spokesperson for the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms pointed us to several, including one published this year in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. In it, a trio of Federal Bureau of Investigation scientists gave 172 certified tool mark examiners cartridges and guns and asked them to look for matches.

The reported instance of false-positive errors (where a cartridge and a gun were incorrectly matched) was 0.933%.

 

[SouthEnd]

Wow, this is a really good article. I found this in particular, very interesting:

There are lots of studies which back up Monturo’s certainty. A spokesperson for the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms pointed us to several, including one published this year in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. In it, a trio of Federal Bureau of Investigation scientists gave 172 certified tool mark examiners cartridges and guns and asked them to look for matches.

The reported instance of false-positive errors (where a cartridge and a gun were incorrectly matched) was 0.933%.

See that's exactly the kind of research I wish the P presents during trial!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Honestly, I respect what the defense is doing here. It frustrates the hell out of me of course, but they're the arguments I'd expect them to make in order to discredit the prosecution case. If you can't win with facts, stretch them as much as you can. Mislead, misdirect, confuse.

Let's throw out a scenario that an officer bizarrely unholstered his gun, cycled a round, and left it there. It works in theory, because (if I'm not mistaken), the sheriff's department does use the same caliber ammunition that was found at the scene.

Let's plant the seed that the investigation was sloppy, by implying that foreign hair was found in Libby's hand. That works because a hair was in fact found, albeit apparently female and almost certainly unrelated to the girls' killer.

Both of those are stretches, especially the former, but that's nothing like the stretch they're making by suggesting that the girls were removed from the scene, murdered, and bizarrely returned. This one I don't like, because very few people would fall for it, as it's as crazy as laughable. That one does work on some level though, as they can claim that searchers should have seen their bodies that night.

Yes, the burden is on the prosecution. But the defense has to do all they can to prevent them from reaching that burden. I'm sure as things progress they'll be able to get some legitimate shots, in addition to the more outlandish attempts at that.

I don’t know…. I don’t like the idea of any defense team trying to mislead and confuse things in hopes of freeing a guilty person.
Sure, the quality of the investigation is up for grabs and it’s fine to have your expert contradict their expert. Things like that.
But, in my opinion, what this defense team is doing is dishonest. It is beyond the pale.
I do not want LE lying about things and I don’t want the defense lying about things. A trial is supposed to be a search for truth. How can you have that if one side is lying and saying misleading things.

 

[MassGuy]

See that's exactly the kind of research I wish the P presents during trial!

Yeah, I’d like them to have multiple experts who concur, as well as have run tests with perhaps several other Sig p226’s.

Show the jury that the same model will have different markings depending upon which particular gun is being analyzed.

ETA: I’m not actually expecting this.

 

[Warwick7]

I wonder why he wasn't charged with kidnapping??

 

[MassGuy]

I wonder why he wasn't charged with kidnapping??

It falls under the felony murder charges. So he’s charged with two counts of murder as well as two counts of felony murder, with kidnapping being the underlying felony crime.

 

[Seattle1]

I wonder why he wasn't charged with kidnapping??

RA is facing 4 counts of murder including during a kidnapping:

Allen, 52, is facing two counts of murder and two counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping in the killings of Delphi, Indiana eighth graders Abigail Williams and Liberty German in 2017.

The Delphi, Indiana murders trial is underway 7 years after 2 girls were mysteriously killed. Here's what to know.

Richard Allen, 52, is facing two counts of murder in the killings of Delphi, Indiana eighth graders Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Vern]

Do we know the make and model of RA's gun that LE compared to the recovered cartridge? I've only found being described as a .40 caliber pistol.

I was curious if it was a popular Glock or a less common gun.

Sig Sauer P226:

From the Search Warrant Return - 2nd page, 1st line item:

_Search Warrant Return.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Sleuth2010]

As we all know, the hair in Abby’s hand was determined by DNA to be that of a female relative of Libby’s.

There have been opinions that so far, no one has been excluded by that hair, other than that the hair does not belong to RA.

Is it possible that Kelsi German or Becky Patty or a cousin is the murderer?

Of course there have been cases where the murderer is a very unexpected relative.

Is there any evidence in this case, direct or circumstantial, that points to one of Libby’s female relatives being the murderer?

Kelsi dropped them off and they were alive. We have proof with the photos on the bridge. She did not return to get them because Libby’s dad was supposed to pick them up. He’s a a male, hence excluded.

Are any female relatives captured on video telling the girls to go down the hill? Did any eyewitness claim to have seen any of those relatives on the bridge? No and no.

Has the behavior of Becky Patty and/or Kelsi German over the past seven years shown any signs of suspicion? Or have they instead devoted the last seven years to pursuing every avenue of Justice, and to keeping the memory of Abby and Libby alive? Have they cooperated with LE in every way they’ve been asked, including providing DNA samples? Yes and yes.

IMO this is not only ludicrous but also impugns two of the people who adored the girls with all their hearts and souls. People who would give anything to have Abby and Libby alive and well, now in their early 20s.

Just my opinion but I assume the insinuations are extraordinarily painful to the families.

Exactly right and accurately said,
it is abhorrent that people attack family members who truly love victims, in these beyond heinous crimes. it happens in some cases. critter's seeking to throw shade to make themselves feel involved, sometimes attempting diversion against the truth, seek a reward, get interviewed or stick their nose where it isn't any of their business! Psychologist say they are generally cross-wired in their brains about understanding normal decency. it is viciously cruel to families and no amount of the critter's unreasonable explanation, makes common sense, to the intelligent compassionate mind

 

[Betty P]

Seems NBC has also jumped on the bandwagon regarding the hair...
NBC NEWS

Oct. 18, 2024
By Erik Ortiz and Tim Stelloh

U.S. NEWS

Delphi murder trial: Richard Allen used power and fear to kill the teen victims, prosecutors say in their opening statement​

Allen is charged in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14. His lawyers proclaimed his innocence during his trial in Carroll County, Indiana.

<<snip>>

"He also said that a strand of hair found on Abby's fingers — evidence that was not made public in the case — is not from Allen or the girls and that testing should be done to see if it matches one of the girls' relatives."

JMO

I suppose NBC is still miffed that the judge confiscated their photographers camera when they were caught taking video of the jurors at the courthouse.

The D likes tossing out the half truths about evidence when they know the P isn’t scheduled to call their expert witness for a couple of days. They know the news and social media will fan the flames, stirring up rumors and clicks until the P answers the question.

I suppose we can expect D to repeat this at the end of each week.