Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Boxer]

If there were pictures, they’d want video. If there was video, they’d want notarized affidavits. They need to try to discredit this piece of evidence in any way that they can think of, because the alternative is that it’s their client’s and there aren’t many reasons his bullet would be next to a dead child.

JMO

Exactly.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The condescension and semantics coming from the D is nauseating.

Yes the thermometer jokes were not in the least bit funny.
I wonder how jury will feel when they realize that the suspect worked at a CVS. Will they find this quip humorous or subtle foreshadowing .
Or will they feel like the joke was made at the expense of the victims for the entertainment of the defendant and his defense team?
JMO

Joke reference in recap by the murder sheet below.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Three: The Crime Scene

 

[MassGuy]

I totally think it's possible, just based on the wide variety of murderers prosecuted. It's been said by psychologists and profilers that killers who commit crimes like this horrible one usually have very vivid and detailed fantasies before (and after) the murders. I guess there are some who are able to really divide and separate their fantasy life from the one they share with their loved ones and the public.
IMO!! good convo starter for sure

One thing he does have in common with killers like this, is that he inserted himself into the investigation, at least to an extent. I'm not sure how that initial interview came about, but I think it's probable that he contacted law enforcement himself. If so, that's a remarkable thing to do. Yes, he could have been protecting himself by admitting he was there before they found him, but I think he got a kick out of it.

I say this because in his second interview, he offered up way more detail than he should have. All he had to do was repeat that he was there, and not describe his clothing the way he did (matching BG). I don't know if he wanted to toy with them, or wanted on some level to be caught.

The former jibes with what he did in the first interview, and the latter jibes with his confessions after the fact.

 

[MassGuy]

Posting these two diagrams that we have drawn by reporters in prior Tweets, for comparison purposes.

 

[gremlin444]

it must be exhausting to line-up early in the morning, spend the long hours in the courthouse, then put together a podcast. However I appreciate it as their detailed observations and explanations are very insightful for me. JMO

Day 3

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Three: The Crime Scene

We discuss the third day of Richard Allen's trial, which saw the jury view graphic crime scene pictures. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC.

art19.com

Other tidbits I jotted down from tonight's podcast (they sound so exhausted...and Kevin is starting to cough..I don't think they can keep going at this pace, staying out there all night in order to get a seat).

Putting my time markings as they come up on Podcast Addict app:

28 min: Jurors had a question after the first witness, Giancola, spoke. They wanted to know what electronics of Libby's he had gotten and was trying to look at (back when they initially thought the girls were just missing). He said her iPad, but it was passcode locked and he couldn't get in at the time. He could see lots of notifications popping up as people tried to contact Libby on her phone and he wrote those numbers down so he could call them.

48 min: the second witness, crime scene photographer Page said that the jeans Abby was wearing appeared wet to the knee when asked how wet they were.

1 hr 4 min: when Baldwin asked crime scene technician Datzman if he would agree this was a very odd crime scene, and he replied, "No."

1 hr 6 min: when Datzman told Baldwin that if SA is suspected, they do not want to take core body temps at the crime scene because they do not want to puncture the skin/body and possibly disrupt any SA evidence.

1 hr 9 min: they did recover a fresh looking JJ cup with a straw (west end of bridge where public trail ends), a power drink (from same general area), and cigarette butts that looked fresh (from same general area). At this point in the testimony, it is not clear what DNA testing was done.

1 hr 11: Luttrell asked Datzman if he had EVER videotaped someone picking up a piece of evidence and putting it in a container, and the witness said no.

1 hr 12 min: juror questions to Datzman1) would there be any reason that the bullet submitted in evidence be different from the bullet collected at the crime. Answer: no. 2) Is there a process by which the jury can be ensured they are seeing evidene that has not been tampered with. The witness then explained the chain of custody concept and process.

1 hr 17 min: crime scene investigator Olehay said that when he was there, the bodies were displaying rigor mortis and were cool to the touch.

 

[MassGuy]

Other tidbits I jotted down from tonight's podcast (they sound so exhausted...and Kevin is starting to cough..I don't think they can keep going at this pace, staying out there all night in order to get a seat).

Putting my time markings as they come up on Podcast Addict app:

28 min: Jurors had a question after the first witness, Giancola, spoke. They wanted to know what electronics of Libby's he had gotten and was trying to look at (back when they initially thought the girls were just missing). He said her iPad, but it was passcode locked and he couldn't get in at the time. He could see lots of notifications popping up as people tried to contact Libby on her phone and he wrote those numbers down so he could call them.

48 min: the second witness, crime scene photographer Page said that the jeans Abby was wearing appeared wet to the knee when asked how wet they were.

1 hr 4 min: when Baldwin asked crime scene technician Datzman if he would agree this was a very odd crime scene, and he replied, "No."

1 hr 6 min: when Datzman told Baldwin that if SA is suspected, they do not want to take core body temps at the crime scene because they do not want to puncture the skin/body and possibly disrupt any SA evidence.

1 hr 9 min: they did recover a fresh looking JJ cup with a straw (west end of bridge where public trail ends), a power drink (from same general area), and cigarette butts that looked fresh (from same general area). At this point in the testimony, it is not clear what DNA testing was done.

1 hr 11: Luttrell asked Datzman if he had EVER videotaped someone picking up a piece of evidence and putting it in a container, and the witness said no.

1 hr 12 min: juror questions to Datzman1) would there be any reason that the bullet submitted in evidence be different from the bullet collected at the crime. Answer: no. 2) Is there a process by which the jury can be ensured they are seeing evidene that has not been tampered with. The witness then explained the chain of custody concept and process.

1 hr 17 min: crime scene investigator Olehay said that when he was there, the bodies were displaying rigor mortis and were cool to the touch.

Oh man, this is so good. This idea that chain of custody must be documented by video or photograph is wild to me. I'm glad the prosecution asked this question.

I love that question by the jury in regards to chain of custody, and the fact that it was explained to them. It shows that they have the same concerns that many people on here have.

That DNA is what I expected. I got the impression early on from some interview (forget who), that investigators did in fact have DNA evidence, but weren't sure it was connected to the killer. I do imagine that stuff was tested and run through CODIS.

 

[sunshineray]

Were any of the daughter's friends actually interviewed? If not, why not?

The public has not been given that information. There's a gag order in place.

 

[iamshadow21]

One thing he does have in common with killers like this, is that he inserted himself into the investigation, at least to an extent. I'm not sure how that initial interview came about, but I think it's probable that he contacted law enforcement himself. If so, that's a remarkable thing to do. Yes, he could have been protecting himself by admitting he was there before they found him, but I think he got a kick out of it.

I say this because in his second interview, he offered up way more detail than he should have. All he had to do was repeat that he was there, and not describe his clothing the way he did (matching BG). I don't know if he wanted to toy with them, or wanted on some level to be caught.

The former jibes with what he did in the first interview, and the latter jibes with his confessions after the fact.

Yeah, it was dupers delight, fishing for information, but also, getting to relive just how close he was. February 13th 2017 was the best day of his life.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848574593726034325

 

[otto]

MEDIA: twitter

I added the numbers to the court drawing - trying to understand the sequence of events. Red is Abby, yellow is LIbby.

It almost looks like Abby was sitting, or lying down, when fatally killed (possibly first) with one knife stroke, and Libby, sitting next to her, was cut, but not fatally and could get away briefly, then was she tossed around, into a tree, cut again, she left a bloody L palm print on a tree, onto the ground, cut a third time and nearly decapitated, then dragged to another tree, bled out. It seems so violent.

Why would the suspect have such aggression towards women who resemble Libby? He didn't know her, but he targeted her and was vicious towards her for a reason. Libby seems like the obvious target. Why?

 

[MiniMoo]

If they have pictures of it there, in the ground, why is it important to have a picture of it being removed?

I'm sure it was put in a labeled sealed envelope, dated, signed and taken for testing.

What is a picture of it being picked up and put into the envelope going to do?

I think I'm starting to see that by taking photos of that bullet being removed and also the markings on it (February 14th, 2017) would prove that that unspent bullet is the exact same one that everyone is going to see when it is shown as evidence in court.

JMT MOO JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I added the numbers to the court drawing - trying to understand the sequence of events. Red is Abby, yellow is LIbby.

It almost looks like Abby was sitting, or lying down, when fatally killed (possibly first) with one knife stroke, and Libby, sitting next to her, was cut, but not fatally and could get away briefly, then was she tossed around, into a tree, cut again, she left a bloody L palm print on a tree, onto the ground, cut a third time and nearly decapitated, then dragged to another tree, bled out. It seems so violent.

Why would the suspect have such aggression towards women who resemble Libby? He didn't know her, but he targeted her and was vicious towards her for a reason. Libby seems like the obvious target. Why?

View attachment 539605

It could be something as simple as his fantasy was her lying there passively for his knife, but her instinct on seeing Abby killed turned her freeze into flight. Her resisting, trying to escape, could have set off an incandescent rage in him, that she wasn't playing out the fantasy.

Or perhaps, her fighting was what really excited him.

Or maybe, it was just blind panic and inexperience, and her beginning to flee meant he reacted with overkill to try and regain control.

Who knows.

Unless these guys talk and are honest about how and why, everything is just guesswork. And the amount of honest self aware sexually motivated murderers out there is miniscule.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I think I'm starting to see that by taking photos of that bullet being removed and also the markings on it (February 14th, 2017) would prove that that unspent bullet is the exact same one that everyone is going to see when it is shown as evidence in court.

JMT MOO JMO

I think that just because a defense team argues that the current accepted standards for evidence collection and chain of custody aren't sufficient doesn't make it so.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

The transcripts are available, the original audio was taped over in error. However no suspect were identified in the first 70 days and the D has never gave any indication the transcripts are not accurate.

If they weren’t recorded, how would the D or anyone know how accurate the transcripts are? Moo

 

[snooptroop88]

One thing he does have in common with killers like this, is that he inserted himself into the investigation, at least to an extent. I'm not sure how that initial interview came about, but I think it's probable that he contacted law enforcement himself. If so, that's a remarkable thing to do. Yes, he could have been protecting himself by admitting he was there before they found him, but I think he got a kick out of it.

I say this because in his second interview, he offered up way more detail than he should have. All he had to do was repeat that he was there, and not describe his clothing the way he did (matching BG). I don't know if he wanted to toy with them, or wanted on some level to be caught.

The former jibes with what he did in the first interview, and the latter jibes with his confessions after the fact.

Agreed. Some of the things this killer did were very clever, outdoor CS with no DNA, the bodies were concealed to the extent that he bought himself some time, perhaps. He came armed with multiple weapons, he had clearly thought through how to capture and subdue the victims, and he concealed his identity to the extent that it took years-- even with witnesses and video images-- to get the suspect we have now.

But he did things that were not nearly so clever, and arguably quite reckless. He went ahead with the crime despite there being witnesses. He left Libby's phone with his own image behind. He left a bullet behind. He allowed himself to be spotted after the crime "muddy" and/or "bloody." He left victims' clothing visible in the creek. Why did he do this? The "interruption" discussed evidently caused him to move across the creek. But once across the creek, he obviously knew he had at least some time. Why leave that phone behind? Why the bullet? I've wondered, too, if this killer doesn't get enormous satisfaction from toying with LE. I've also wondered if he was functioning in some kind of trance at different points where he may not have been thinking clearly and sharply enough to cover himself so shrewdly. Maybe it's a combination of the two. And it does line up in many aspects with what we've seen of RA's scattered behavior and confession patterns, where you can almost see the mental tug-of-war in his head spilling out into his words and actions. And it lines up as you note with someone inserting himself into the investigation in the first place. Did RA think he'd outfoxed LE, was he reveling in the fact that he as the subdued everyday pharmacy tech had literally gotten away with murder? MOO, I think that's going to end up a yes, but watching things unfold.

 

[Melted]

I can't say that I'm disappointed to see yet another Franks' Memorandum allegation put to bed with the drawing below. No wonder Judge Gull denied it.

Try as I might, I'm not seeing any smaller sticks on Abby's head resembling horns or antlers as page 30 described it:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848500954670264538

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf -

pdfhost.io

“No, it did not cover them at all. Their bodies were clearly visible in the photos. The branches were pretty small with the exception of a large limb laying on top of Libby. Based on seeing the photos today, I don’t think the branches were there to try and hide them.”

From that same tweet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848519035270349247

 

[snooptroop88]

They asked the blood spatter expert, who did say the branches (correction on "branches": sticks, limb(s)) might have been an advantage in terms of concealment. (pp 19-22). Whether the killer did in actuality fully conceal the victims or not, it may regardless have been his best effort at the time to do so.

_Testimony of Major Patrick Cicero Given at Hearing on Motion in Limine Held August 1, 2024.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[otto]

I'll say this, he totally breaks the mold when it comes to someone who would commit a crime like this. He has no criminal record, and his first known crime was an incredibly rare double murder of two girls. Over the course of the investigation, law enforcement focused on several other suspects who had backgrounds that one would expect in regards to possibly having done this.

That being said, we have a man who admits to being on the trail at the same time, who just so happened to be dressed exactly like the man in that video. Witnesses corroborated this, and he corroborated the witnesses (I think it was 3 girls he encountered).

In between those bodies, was an unspent round that has markings consistent with the markings produced by Allen's firearm. The science in that regard is not like that of DNA, but it is widely regarded as being solid.

That gets you to the murder charges, and on a personal level makes me more than comfortable they have their guy.

Do I want to see more? Yes. Do I want to hear (in our case read) those confessions so I can determine if he did in fact reveal things only the killer would know? Yes. Do I think he was probably in the throes of mental issues when he gave those confessions? Yes. Will that matter? Only if he could have guessed accurately, or known those things from discovery.

Law enforcement had years to jam up any poor sap with these charges, and plenty of opportunities along the way. The did not. How they got to RA was organic. A misfiled interview was found, and it changed everything. Allen's followup interview buried him. Had he kept his mouth shut and not added the details that gave law enforcement probable cause to search his property (especially his admission regarding the clothing), then we're like still discussing this case until the end of time.

Fortunately that's not how it went down.

Russell Williams was like that too. He was the most unlikely person to have a string of underwear burglaries, rapes and murders, but it happened when he was in his 50s. He was a Canadian Colonel who flew planes for Queen Elizabeth, but Williams became more careless over time. Perhaps he believed that he was above reproach. I don't think anyone believes that he started terrorizing women in his 50s, but there are no other known victims from when he was younger.

The murders during his fifties started with sneaking into women and children's bedrooms, stealing underwear, then raping women and filming it, then raping, filming and murdering women, then keeping them for several days before murdering them and attempting to frame the neighbour. Did Richard Allen commit any other offences between 2017 and 2022, when he was arrested. Joran van der Sloot murdered exactly 5 years after the first murder.

I'm curious to hear more about how Richard Allen was ruled out for Evansdale July 2012 cousin murders. Were they covered with a couple of branches? I don't recall. Were they killed with knives because it is quieter? They were identified by clothing, but were there any cut marks on their necks, especially Lyric?

 

[mrjitty]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

my understanding is if the round is not accepted into evidence by mutual agreement as happens with many exhibits then the witnesses are required to admit the exhibit.

 

[mrjitty]

Because if the defense won't stipulate to it pre-trial, they have to have all the chain of custody witnesses testify. Like the Alex Murdaugh trial--there was never a chain of custody question, yet the defense refused to stipulate to a single thing pretrial. Endless days were taken up with chain of custody witnesses.

"Prior to the jury returning to the court room after lunch, defense attorney Dick Harpootlian and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for the validity of using Paul Murdaugh’s cellphone as evidence without having every individual in the chain of custody testify the phone was not tampered with...[defense attorney]
Harpootlian insisted testimony must be given by each individual named in the phone’s chain of custody to validate the evidence for use in court."

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

Read more at: https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article271862737.html#storylink=cpy

exactly.

and what this is really about is a conspiracy that the bullet had been switched to frame RA.

let’s call out the game about why they are doing this. they want to put it in the juries head that it might have been switched.