Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Deleted member 296739]

The toolmarks, as I understand it, would not be visible to the naked eye. Even if they did take a photograph of the entire bullet, it would still be a photograph of a bullet that would look like any other bullet of the same brand and type. The argument would then become “but how do we still know this was the same bullet?” This is exactly what chain of custody is for. The bullet is photographed, it’s bagged and sealed. Any time the seal is broken, someone signs off saying they opened the evidence and reseals it.

Saying that the bullet may have gotten swapped is literally requiring a major conspiracy to happen based on what we known now. There is no separating these things. Someone didn’t accidentally sign out the evidence from ISP, open the bag, replace the bullet with a different bullet, seal the bag, sign the evidence back in.

I just don’t buy this as anywhere near likely. And having photographs of the entire bullet would still not preclude this level of conspiracy theorizing from occurring.

All my opinion.

Thank you-

 

[Deleted member 296739]

A dent in a cake pan is clearly obvious but do we know how visible were the markings on the bullet that was retrieved from the ground, or did it required to be cleaned first and examined under a microscope? My understanding from following yesterday’s reports of testimony was a photo was taken but the D was unsatisfied about the quality.

So I think the D would be dissatisfied regardless because the process is not really the main issue, it’s that bullet incriminates RA. Therefore arguing the process is their only way to mitigate the damage it represents towards their client’s guilt. JMO

Thank you for helping me understand

 

[Simply Southern]

The problem is the bullet was not tested until 2023, 6 years after the crime. We already know and the defense is going to let the jury know how this investigative team clearly has a problem with handling evidence (deleting the first 48 hours of all interviews, losing the recorded tip Dullin supposedly recorded of RA, etc etc)

Where was that bullet for 6 years? Who has access to it? And as the jury asked today… is there anyway the bullet that ended up being tested was not the bullet that was taken from the crime scene.

Moo

Smoke and mirrors …
They needed a gun to test it against. Until a gun is provided for the testing it’s stored in a locked/secure evidence locker with a COC.

Moo…

 

[mrjitty]

The toolmarks, as I understand it, would not be visible to the naked eye. Even if they did take a photograph of the entire bullet, it would still be a photograph of a bullet that would look like any other bullet of the same brand and type. The argument would then become “but how do we still know this was the same bullet?” This is exactly what chain of custody is for. The bullet is photographed, it’s bagged and sealed. Any time the seal is broken, someone signs off saying they opened the evidence and reseals it.

Saying that the bullet may have gotten swapped is literally requiring a major conspiracy to happen based on what we known now. There is no separating these things. Someone didn’t accidentally sign out the evidence from ISP, open the bag, replace the bullet with a different bullet, seal the bag, sign the evidence back in.

I just don’t buy this as anywhere near likely. And having photographs of the entire bullet would still not preclude this level of conspiracy theorizing from occurring.

All my opinion.

... and if that level of criminal conspiracy is happening, then all bets are off anyway. This is quite a convoluted way to frame someone. Wouldn't it be cleaner just to get some forensic evidence from RA's house and plant it on the original evidence? Do a retest and bingo.

Framing him so indirectly doesn't make sense when you think about it. IMO

 

[MassGuy]

Thank you, that’s very helpful for my novice understanding of how it works- and as a juror that type of documented chain of custody would satisfy my questions about “planted” evidence- gaps in the chain would create questions for me-

I was just saying that as a non expert I’d probably be the dumb juror asking what looked like stupid or ridiculously simple questions about how and when evidence was collected, secured and analyzed- I’m just ignorant to much of it, and I know that procedures vary by state and jurisdiction

Thank you for you helpful reply

The vast majority of people have absolutely no idea how this stuff works, which gives the defense argument regarding the photographs even more weight.

That’s why it’s great that the jury is utilizing their ability to ask questions of witnesses.

They asked specifically about chain of custody yesterday, and the witness walked them through the process.

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848656991603847662

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848684362016993747

 

[Deleted member 296739]

One more bullet question-sorry if it’s a stupid question or has already been repeatedly asked and I missed it - are tool marking on a bullet similar to say fingerprints or dna which can be documented independently prior to having a suspect in mind? I know that you’d need to have the gun to match- like needed a suspect to compare fingerprints or dna to look for a match- but could the bullet have been analyzed earlier and then matched to a particular gun at a later?

 

[arielilane]

@MaxLewisTV

Other big part of today was the horribly graphic crime scene photos. Libby was naked and Abby was wearing Libby’s pants and sweatshirt. They had sticks and branches across the their body. Since we have no cameras in court, here’s my best drawing of what it looked like

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848500954670264538

 

[arielilane]

@kithanleytv

#DELPHI Day 4: This morning is expected to begin with the prosecution continuing its questioning of ISP CSI, Brian Olehy. The defense will then have a chance to cross-exam him.The girls’ clothing, Libby’s phone, & the unspent bullet might also be presented into evidence today.


7:47 AM · Oct 22, 2024

 

[m00c0w]

... and if that level of criminal conspiracy is happening, then all bets are off anyway. This is quite a convoluted way to frame someone. Wouldn't it be cleaner just to get some forensic evidence from RA's house and plant it on the original evidence? Do a retest and bingo.

Framing him so indirectly doesn't make sense when you think about it. IMO

It’s also strange that the defense is so concerned about photographs for a bullet that allegedly isn’t even inculpatory for their defendant anyway.

Just like the franks, they’re fighting awfully hard over something they want people to believe doesn’t even matter to begin with.

JMO

 

[Simply Southern]

Why did the suspect drag Libby 7-8 feet across the crime scene when she was dying, bleeding out, nearly decapitated? Abby had her neck cut and she died on the spot, not so with Libby. Why was she dragged, bleeding on trees and leaves? What was the suspect thinking?

Excellent questions Maybe RA will take the stand and the P can ask that question.

I would certainly want an opportunity to defend myself, if innocent.
Moo

 

[Web_Sleuth]

@MaxLewisTV

Other big part of today was the horribly graphic crime scene photos. Libby was naked and Abby was wearing Libby’s pants and sweatshirt. They had sticks and branches across the their body. Since we have no cameras in court, here’s my best drawing of what it looked like

View attachment 539666

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848500954670264538

Anyone have theories on why Abby had on Libby’s clothing? I realize Abby’s may have gotten wet - but why would she have Libby’s on and Libby be nude? This one is just boggling me. Especially if Abby was killed first. Do we think RA redressed her in the wrong clothes? Something else??

MOO

 

[Megnut]

The toolmarks, as I understand it, would not be visible to the naked eye. Even if they did take a photograph of the entire bullet, it would still be a photograph of a bullet that would look like any other bullet of the same brand and type. The argument would then become “but how do we still know this was the same bullet?” This is exactly what chain of custody is for. The bullet is photographed, it’s bagged and sealed. Any time the seal is broken, someone signs off saying they opened the evidence and reseals it.

Saying that the bullet may have gotten swapped is literally requiring a major conspiracy to happen based on what we know now. There is no separating these things. Someone didn’t accidentally sign out the evidence from ISP, open the bag, replace the bullet with a different bullet, seal the bag, sign the evidence back in.

I just don’t buy this as anywhere near likely. And having photographs of the entire bullet would still not preclude this level of conspiracy theorizing from occurring.

All my opinion.

Additionally, the tech who bagged the bullet would have no way of knowing the evidentiary value, outside of it being found within a crime scene. No way to know necessarily it had been cycled. If there was trace DNA or fingerprints, any extra handling (in order to photograph it unnecessarily) at the crime scene could have rendered it open to contamination or destruction of trace/print evidence. Instead, it was bagged and sealed and the Defense knows it.

IMO when it's introduced at trial, the right person will be asked the relevant questions and the seal will be broken, chain of command clearly marked on the evidence bag itself. That analyst no doubt will have a report documenting his/her steps which will likely include both a visual examination and photo documentation.

JMO

 

[Seattle1]

One more bullet question-sorry if it’s a stupid question or has already been repeatedly asked and I missed it - are tool marking on a bullet similar to say fingerprints or dna which can be documented independently prior to having a suspect in mind? I know that you’d need to have the gun to match- like needed a suspect to compare fingerprints or dna to look for a match- but could the bullet have been analyzed earlier and then matched to a particular gun at a later?

This is a great reference from the MEDIA thread which may answer your questions. It's an evolving topic.

Linking of Richard Allen’s gun to Delphi crime scene ‘not science’ says The Innocence Project

The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence, claiming it’s “not settled science.”

fox59.com

12/8/22

Tania Brief, a senior staff attorney with The Innocence Project, is talking about a type of commonly used forensic examination accepted by law enforcement and courts for decades: tool mark analysis.

It is how the Indiana State Police Laboratory says it confirmed an unfired 40-caliber cartridge was ejected out of a handgun of Richard Allen. The unfired round was found between the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. This is the only piece of publicly disclosed evidence linking the accused killer to the crime scene.

In the probable cause affidavit used to charge Allen with two counts of murder, it is stated as fact, “(an) upsent .40 round between the bodies of Victim 1 and Victim 2 was forensically determined to have been cycled through Richard Allen’s Sig Sauer Model P226.”

To understand how such a match is determined, we talked with Chris Monturo who has 26 years of experience and a forensic consulting and testing company in the Cincinnati area.

Monturo explained while ammunition is generally made of soft metals like brass, copper and lead, firearms are made of much harder metals.

[..]

But The Innocence Project is pressing on against tool mark evidence. During its 30 years of existence, it has used DNA to exonerate 375 people who were wrongfully convicted. An examination found flawed forensic evidence played a role in 51% of those erroneous convictions.

“The question for courts is whether or not the science is current and reliable,” said Brief.

 

[Niner]

Here is the link to Blog Day 4 - which I will use as reference in my notes.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 4 live blog

Day 4 of the Delphi Murders trial will take place at the Carroll County courthouse on Tuesday. Follow our live blog for the latest updates.

www.wishtv.com

 

[Deleted member 296739]

This is a great reference from the MEDIA thread which may answer your questions. It's an evolving topic.

Thank you- that article was very helpful-

 

[Deleted member 39678]

That’s just not how it’s done, as items are evidence are protected by chain of custody protocols. Photos are taken at the scene to identify the item and show where it was located. Labs apparently also take photos once they begin the process of identifying the item.

A sealed evidence bag is a container that has a closure to prevent the loss or contamination of evidence. The closure should be tamper-evident, meaning it will reveal if someone has tried to open the bag.


Here are some examples of sealed evidence bags:

• Tamper-evident tape: A proper seal should extend across the entire opening of the container and include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Heat seals: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it.
• Self-seal containers: A proper seal should include the initials of the person sealing it or be in a designated location on the container.
  
  
  Evidence bags also often come with a white label for recording information about the contents, such as the type of evidence, date and time of collection, and the originating location.

View attachment 539665

Apparently all of that isn't good enough and the forensic study needs to be done in the field before a cartridge is removed.

Not sure how that's even possible. JMO.

 

[Megnut]

Anyone have theories on why Abby had on Libby’s clothing? I realize Abby’s may have gotten wet - but why would she have Libby’s on and Libby be nude? This one is just boggling me. Especially if Abby was killed first. Do we think RA redressed her in the wrong clothes? Something else??

MOO

Iirc we were told the girls had no defensive wounds, implication that they didn't fight back, weren't restrained. I think both are false.

If Abby's hand were folded close to her chest, inside one or two sweatshirts, I suspect that RA was using clothing to bind her. (If I'm understanding correctly that her arms were zipped inside her/their sweatshirt/s.)

Some of Libby's clothes were in the creek, perhaps an element of sick punishment was in play, giving all the clothes to Abby and none to Libby.

IMO it's very likely he was forcing Libby to dress Abby with a gun trained on both of them. Very close quarters, no way not to do whatever told.

18 minutes is a terrifying long time.

JMO

 

[Web_Sleuth]

Iirc we were told the girls had no defensive wounds, implication that they didn't fight back, weren't restrained. I think both are false.

If Abby's hand were folded close to her chest, inside one or two sweatshirts, I suspect that RA was using clothing to bind her. (If I'm understanding correctly that her arms were zipped inside her/their sweatshirt/s.)

Some of Libby's clothes were in the creek, perhaps an element of sick punishment was in play, giving all the clothes to Abby and none to Libby.

IMO it's very likely he was forcing Libby to dress Abby with a gun trained on both of them. Very close quarters, no way not to do whatever told.

18 minutes is a terrifying long time.

JMO

I missed that her arms may have been inside. Hmmm

MOO