Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[AugustWest]

I think you are trying to say in (1) that a fired cartridge case has another point for comparison when compared to an unfired round. The firing pin leaves a mark on the primer in the fired case and the unfired one does not. JMO.

I'm not directly saying that, but that is one difference in an unfired round and a used cartridge. The study is saying there is a difference in the reliability of analysis in the two.

 

[Betty P]

I think the point isn’t just that the hair belongs to the killer, but that the investigation was sloppy in that it wasn’t tested (I firmly believe it was). It’s a point the defense has to keep making, even if it’s not true.

Like I said yesterday, that’s why they ask questions they know a particular witness can’t answer. No sooner did I say that, did we get the information that the witness didn’t know if a rape kit was performed.

Which for the crowd that views every part of the investigation as flawed (regardless of common sense and evidence of that), meant that testing was not performed.

We of course learned today that not only was it performed, but also the identity of the medical examiner who performed it.

We've seen this tactic used in so many trials, its surprising some people are still unaware of it.

 

[joe jones]

Respectfully,
You did not learn from Day 1 of the trial that two sharp edged weapons were used. You heard that from the defense’s opening statement, which is not evidence and is not sworn testimony. You heard the defense’s idea on how they think things happened.

I didn't hear it it was reported, I think they may have got their information from the autopsy report, I will wait to see if they agree with or refute the defences remarks, I think they will agree IMO
I also do not think it is beyond the realm of possibility that they may have been taken off the bridge and down the road leading away from bridge, but I couldn't see a reason for returning onto Logan's property to either kill them or dump bodies, so that theory isn't very logical to me

 

[Web_Sleuth]

Getting Abby & Libby DTH with a gun pointed at them would have taken a couple of moments at most, they were already near the end of the bridge. RA could control Abby & Libby because he had the power over them, they were just children terrified out of their minds. This started at approx 2:13 pm.

It appears that he may have tried to molest them before crossing the creek, but was interrupted by something or someone. They might have been already undressed or partially undressed and RA had to force them across the creek to the area that is more out of sight. Which would explain why Libby's clothes shirt, underwear and one shoe were found in the creek (dropped).

RA=BG=Killer wasn't seen again until SC saw him walking on Old County Road N300 at 3:50 pm looking muddy and bloody.
That is plenty of time for RA to have accomplished this. Set a timer for 90 minutes, it really is quite a while.

Nobody, no witnesses or anyone at the MHB or Freedom Trails that day ever saw Libby and Abby again coming back from crossing the bridge. Nor did they see RA=BG in the area again either. That's because nobody left from the location he forced them to until RA snuck back to his car after being alerted by Libby's dad calling and texting her for pick up.

JMO

This makes so much more sense to me…if Libby wasn’t actually wearing the sweatshirt ( maybe tied around her waist? - or even if she was at one time) - the suspect could have had Abby put it on and keep her hands inside as a way to control her while violating Libby. Then as you said, they had to cross the river possibly holding clothing, when Abby was forced to sit down (where she ultimately died) she could have put the shoe that concealed the phone under or behind her to not be seen or found, possibly hoping to be able to use it to even call for help when possible. I do wonder if Abby was alive for part of the attack on Libby ( not the knife part)…could she have been saying things to him - eventually he got angry and killed her, to which then Libby tried to attack him / or tried to get away.

Honestly trying to make sense out of something like this could drive you mad because there IS NO SENSE in it. It’s madness and pure evil.

JMO

 

[MiniMoo]

That makes no sense to me. If they wanted to plant a bullet, wouldn't be super easy to shove one in the ground and then take a perfect video of its "discovery"? How would a photo of the process guarantee anything if we go by the idea that the LE is corrupt?

IMO thinking that the bullet was switched out with 0 evidence is believing that the LE conspired to frame RA since the day of the murders.

Which is an impossibility.

All MOO

I will wait for the bullet experts on it to see which way I sway because that unspent bullet may have been dropped by accident and unaccounted for or may have been there by coincidence with it being on hunting grounds.

As for it being switched that never crossed my mind and now it does.

I was thinking more along the lines of that bullet being documented 100% so that there is no doubt that it is the same one.

For myself going forward, I need to see what the experts have to say about it, and if it can be proven that it was dropped by the accused.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[BUF]

Tuesday’s session started with additional testimony from Brian Olehy, the lead crime scene investigator on the case. Several key pieces of evidence were brought into court. Each piece was contained within a brown paper bag and was not physically shown to the jury.

The evidence included:

• Hollister blue jeans
• Tie dye t-shirt
• Gray sweatshirt (medium size)
• Sonoma brand pink underwear
• Black and purple sock
• Pink sock
• Green headscarf
• Blacked Faded Glory spaghetti strap shirt
• Converse tennis shoes
• .40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge
• Collection of strand of material found between fingers on Abby’s right hand
• Strand from Abby’s left arm
• Black Nike tennis shoe under Abby’s body

The items were either collected from the creek or recovered from the crime scene.
……
Sexual assault kits were completed and turned over to police. Evidence from the autopsy included a black hooded sweatshirt with the words “Delphi swimming” and “German” on it, size XL blue jeans with blood on them, gray cotton bra, pink sleeveless shirt and black bra with red stains.
…….
He said since Abby was wearing some of Libby’s clothes, it was a “logical assumption” that Libby “was disrobed.” He said investigators were not able to determine where the events occurred and told Rozzi that investigators didn’t test the sticks found with the girls.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-contentious-cross-examination-of-investigator-marks-day-4-of-testimony/

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'm not directly saying that, but that is one difference in an unfired round and a used cartridge. The study is saying there is a difference in the reliability of analysis in the two.

I guess I need to go over that study because I'm not understanding how an examiner will be more or less reliable when comparing an unfired round vs a fired one.

I could see different examiners having differing levels of reliability depending on experience,methods and equipment used. JMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I always enjoy going back to the early threads on cases like this, and seeing if people got it right. In this case I looked at what people made of the photo of BG.

There were several posts that put him at “middle aged,” and identified his jacket as being a Carhartt.

Of course Allen was middle aged, and admitted that he was wearing a Carhartt that matched the color of BG.

Many people identified the imprint of a gun, which obviously made logical sense in regards to how one man could control two teen girls.

And as we know, the girls also allegedly mentioned a gun, and that round was found.

We WS sleuthers have been around the block of crime a time or two.

I know more about this case than I care to remember, it's been a looooong 7+ years. I'm ready for it to be over and for Justice be served to Libby, Abby, their families, and the community of Delphi. It's beyond time.

JMO

 

[Bbgiraffe]

I guess I need to go over that study because I'm not understanding how an examiner will be more or less reliable when comparing an unfired round vs a fired one.

I could see different examiners having differing levels of reliability depending on experience,methods and equipment used. JMO.

When the bullet goes through the barrel it gets striations from the inside of the barrel on it that make identifying the gun that fired the bullet easier than just being cycled through the gun. Probably more comparison points. Like the firing pin mark you mentioned earlier.

 

[Arkay]

Like I said yesterday, that’s why they ask questions they know a particular witness can’t answer. No sooner did I say that, did we get the information that the witness didn’t know if a rape kit was performed.

Which for the crowd that views every part of the investigation as flawed (regardless of common sense and evidence of that), meant that testing was not performed.

We of course learned today that not only was it performed, but also the identity of the medical examiner who performed it.

Exactly.

This is particularly frustrating.

Why not call the local grocery bagger to the stand and ask him to expound upon the finer points of forensic investigations? Why not call a house painter and ask him to explicate E=MC squared?

The D, IMO, is intentionally and nefariously calling experts in one area to testify in a discipline in which they have no training, just to elicit an “I don’t know” and hope the jury is confounded by that.

A solid defense is part of our law, but “tricks are for kids.”

IMO

ETA: I’m impressed with this jury. They seem to be paying very close attention and posing pertinent questions. I have hope they won’t be fooled by the “look over here, not over there” tactics of the defense.

I believe RA is guilty but I will accept this jury’s verdict, whatever it may be and whenever it is announced.

 

[katydid23]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848498179014332780

CSI Investigator Olehy on the stand discusses where Abby and Libby’s shoes, clothing and cell phone were found.

"Libby’s shoe was found in the river. 2nd shoe found under Abby.Libby’s phone was under Abby’s shoe.Libby’s shirt was on Abby, Libby’s other clothes were inside-out and in creek."

Finally, we can put to bed that 'two shoes in the creek' snafu.

 

[Web_Sleuth]

Tuesday’s session started with additional testimony from Brian Olehy, the lead crime scene investigator on the case. Several key pieces of evidence were brought into court. Each piece was contained within a brown paper bag and was not physically shown to the jury.

The evidence included:

• Hollister blue jeans
• Tie dye t-shirt
• Gray sweatshirt (medium size)
• Sonoma brand pink underwear
• Black and purple sock
• Pink sock
• Green headscarf
• Blacked Faded Glory spaghetti strap shirt
• Converse tennis shoes
• .40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge
• Collection of strand of material found between fingers on Abby’s right hand
• Strand from Abby’s left arm
• Black Nike tennis shoe under Abby’s body

The items were either collected from the creek or recovered from the crime scene.
……
Sexual assault kits were completed and turned over to police. Evidence from the autopsy included a black hooded sweatshirt with the words “Delphi swimming” and “German” on it, size XL blue jeans with blood on them, gray cotton bra, pink sleeveless shirt and black bra with red stains.
…….
He said since Abby was wearing some of Libby’s clothes, it was a “logical assumption” that Libby “was disrobed.” He said investigators were not able to determine where the events occurred and told Rozzi that investigators didn’t test the sticks found with the girls.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-contentious-cross-examination-of-investigator-marks-day-4-of-testimony/

Abby had on two bras?

JMO

 

[joe jones]

We WS sleuthers have been around the block of crime a time or two.

I know more about this case than I care to remember, it's been a looooong 7+ years. I'm ready for it to be over and for Justice be served to Libby, Abby, their families, and the community of Delphi. It's beyond time.

JMO

It needs to be a one and done, which is why every I needs dotting and every T crossing, the families (all families who are victims) should only have to go through it once, not find out months or years later something that was done during trial means it has to be redone
Different to any appeals RA may file, I am talking about things done at this trial which means he automatically gets a do over, I know of one very high profile trial which got a do over due to Judges behaviour, I am not sure if we are allowed to mention other trials

 

[MrsWatson]

Abby had on two bras?

JMO

I think one of those (the grey cotton) may have been a sports bra, worn over her regular bra.

 

[girlhasnoname]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for for statement of fact


We know that RA said in his statement to LE in Oct 2022 that he owned a P226, he never loaned it out, it had never been stolen and he had never been on RL's property.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I would assume the paperwork would speak for itself and not be an issue. Why would he need witnesses to testify about it?

I would guess that the witnesses were scheduled to testify about the paperwork because the D is calling it out and questioning it. JMO

 

[photographer4]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848752109744783838

View attachment 539692

Has anyone aside Nick given an approximate time of death? EG: a forensics investigator or anyone official?

 

[WildHuncher]

Tuesday’s session started with additional testimony from Brian Olehy, the lead crime scene investigator on the case. Several key pieces of evidence were brought into court. Each piece was contained within a brown paper bag and was not physically shown to the jury.

The evidence included:

• Hollister blue jeans
• Tie dye t-shirt
• Gray sweatshirt (medium size)
• Sonoma brand pink underwear
• Black and purple sock
• Pink sock
• Green headscarf
• Blacked Faded Glory spaghetti strap shirt
• Converse tennis shoes
• .40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge
• Collection of strand of material found between fingers on Abby’s right hand
• Strand from Abby’s left arm
• Black Nike tennis shoe under Abby’s body

The items were either collected from the creek or recovered from the crime scene.
……
Sexual assault kits were completed and turned over to police. Evidence from the autopsy included a black hooded sweatshirt with the words “Delphi swimming” and “German” on it, size XL blue jeans with blood on them, gray cotton bra, pink sleeveless shirt and black bra with red stains.
…….
He said since Abby was wearing some of Libby’s clothes, it was a “logical assumption” that Libby “was disrobed.” He said investigators were not able to determine where the events occurred and told Rozzi that investigators didn’t test the sticks found with the girls.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-contentious-cross-examination-of-investigator-marks-day-4-of-testimony/

From the link:

‘He said since Abby was wearing some of Libby’s clothes, it was a “logical assumption” that Libby “was disrobed.”’

Since Libby was visibly disrobed, I wonder if he wasn’t actually saying that Abby had been disrobed at some point.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

Abby had on two bras?

JMO

When I was a teen I would wear two bras so I wouldn't seem so flat chested. I know Abby is a little young for that but it's possible.

 

[MassGuy]

Has anyone aside Nick given an approximate time of death? EG: a forensics investigator or anyone official?

We'd have to wait for the medical examiner probably.