Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[katydid23]

I think one of those (the grey cotton) may have been a sports bra, worn over her regular bra.

I used to work in a middle school. The girls PE teacher used to make jokes about how some of the girls would wear two bras to add substance. I think it's kind of a middle school thing?

 

[katydid23]

When I was a teen I would wear two bras so I wouldn't seem so flat chested. I know Abby is a little young for that but it's possible.

We said same thing at same time...

 

[Yemelyan]

Has anyone aside Nick given an approximate time of death? EG: a forensics investigator or anyone official?

I don't think they've gotten to this testimony yet. Maybe later today or tomorrow.

 

[tlcya]

I look forward to the testimony about the autopsies and how TOD was determined. Sounds like we are getting closer to hearing from the state about those aspects of the investigation.

I appreciate how the State has conducted their case thus far, beginning from the beginning and moving sequentially through the investigation timeline. MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Another thing about the bullet--she shell casing is a perfect place to pick up fingerprints. Was this discovered shell casing dusted for prints? IF so, what was the results. So much about this investigation is still unknown. I wonder why?

I think it would probably be beyond anyone to get a print off a round under these circumstances. I know brass is a great surface for prints, but this one had been covered almost entirely by the soil, probably by being stepped on. The soil was wet with moisture, both water and blood. The round being pushed into the ground, probably by a foot, would have caused friction that rubbed all the surfaces as it was pressed in. Any potential prints would have been long gone.

Also, a lot of the time, prints on a round, if they exist, are partials anyway, from pressing the round into the magazine with a finger or thumb. Yes, having a print on the bullet would have been great, but it would have been a virtual impossibility to find one.

If the round was found lying on a dry surface, untouched, maybe. But that was not the case.

MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

From the link:

‘He said since Abby was wearing some of Libby’s clothes, it was a “logical assumption” that Libby “was disrobed.”’

Since Libby was visibly disrobed, I wonder if he wasn’t actually saying that Abby had been disrobed at some point.

I think Cicero's testimony from the three day hearing was that his findings were that Abby had been disrobed "below the waist at some point." I do notice in this list of clothing items that there is only one pair of underwear accounted for. Possibly that's how they were able to infer this.

 

[BUF]

I think Cicero's testimony from the three day hearing was that his findings were that Abby had been disrobed "below the waist at some point." I do notice in this list of clothing items that there is only one pair of underwear accounted for. Possibly that's how they were able to infer this.

IIRC one pair of underwear and one sock was still missing

Delphi documents: Richard Allen told wife he killed girls; investigators believe knife used in murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Documents unsealed Wednesday in the 2017 Delphi murders provide new insight into the case against Richard Allen. They also reveal for the first time publicly how investigators believ…

fox59.com

Investigators also determined that “articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene, including a pair of underwear and a sock.”

 

[girlhasnoname]

It needs to be a one and done, which is why every I needs dotting and every T crossing, the families (all families who are victims) should only have to go through it once, not find out months or years later something that was done during trial means it has to be redone
Different to any appeals RA may file, I am talking about things done at this trial which means he automatically gets a do over, I know of one very high profile trial which got a do over due to Judges behaviour, I am not sure if we are allowed to mention other trials

I have found the State to methodically be dotting every I and crossing every T. The Defense just blowing smoke and playing word games.

RA cannot file an appeal on ineffective counsel since he chose to have R&B reinstated during the SCOIN oral arguments, even over the claims of Judge Gull. We know most convicted defendants try for an appeal, but are usually unsuccessful in the long run.

Judge Gull has had nothing but issues with this DT from Day 1 with their questionable behavior and outright misconduct IMO. Yes, the SCOIN reinstated R&B because of RA's 6th Amendment right to counsel even though a defendant is not afforded the right of a Public Defender of his own choosing. They had a history and RA wanted them reinstated.

The SCOIN also chose not to recuse Judge Gull as there was no evidence presented that she was biased against RA or R&B.

So this is where we are, counting on a jury of RA's peers to hear the evidence presented by both the State and the Defense and make a determination of his guilt or innocence. I feel confident they will see RA for what I believe he truly is...a murdering child killer who was hiding in plain sight for 5 years.

JMO

 

[Simply Southern]

If the chain of custody was broken there’d be proof of that by missing or suspicious entries in the CofC Log. That’s not even being alleged by the D, obviously because there’s no proof it occurred.

The only reason the bullet is a contentious issue to RA’s defense team is because the bullet strongly implies RA’s guilt. JMO

Yup, if tampering could be proven the D would have filed to exclude the bullet.

So now to Plan B, D will try to plant the seed of doubt. Kinda a Hail Mary. All the D needs is ONE hold out juror for a mistrial.
Moo…

 

[Simply Southern]

I apologize if it came across that I was suggesting that people on WS were the “masses” I was referring to other online media threads and comments- where it seems like at times people are ready to just assume guilty in the name of “justice” and closure

I meant no disrespect towards anyone on WS

I know you didn’t. I appreciate your questions, that’s how we learn.

We might disagree but we all still WS family.

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848778894817497235

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848779380765426110

 

[girlhasnoname]

IIRC one pair of underwear and one sock was still missing

Delphi documents: Richard Allen told wife he killed girls; investigators believe knife used in murders

DELPHI, Ind. – Documents unsealed Wednesday in the 2017 Delphi murders provide new insight into the case against Richard Allen. They also reveal for the first time publicly how investigators believ…

fox59.com

Investigators also determined that “articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene, including a pair of underwear and a sock.”

That is why I've often wondered if RA did take a trophy from the CS. It wouldn't surprise me at all. JMO

 

[Melted]

Earlier post of mine, adjusted with permission from Tricia:


There have been opinions that so far, no one has been excluded by that hair, other than that the hair does not belong to RA.

Kelsi dropped them off and they were alive. We have proof with the photos on the bridge. She did not return to get them because Libby’s dad was supposed to pick them up. He’s a a male, hence excluded.

Are any female relatives captured on video telling the girls to go down the hill? Did any eyewitness claim to have seen any of those relatives on the bridge? No and no.

Has the behavior of Becky Patty and/or Kelsi German over the past seven years shown any signs of suspicion? Or have they instead devoted the last seven years to pursuing every avenue of Justice, and to keeping the memory of Abby and Libby alive? Have they cooperated with LE in every way they’ve been asked, including providing DNA samples? Yes and yes.

Is there any evidence in this case, direct or circumstantial, that points to one of Libby’s female relatives being the murderer?

IMO this is not only ludicrous but also impugns two of the people who adored the girls with all their hearts and souls. People who would give anything to have Abby and Libby alive and well, now in their early 20s.

Just my opinion but I assume the insinuations are extraordinarily painful to the families.

Thinking that the investigative team should thoroughly test the only outside dna that they found at the crime scene regardless of who’s family it belongs to is in no way making insinuations against the family.

It’s basic police work.

IMO

 

[Cedars]

I apologize if it came across that I was suggesting that people on WS were the “masses” I was referring to other online media threads and comments- where it seems like at times people are ready to just assume guilty in the name of “justice” and closure

I meant no disrespect towards anyone on WS

IMO, by and large, the masses trust that police and prosecutors do not deliberately arrest and prosecute innocent people. Especially not state-level police and the FBI.

The assumption that this case is all a large and complex conspiracy amongst innumerable people in the Indiana State justice system, is held by only a very, very small portion of the population.

JMO

 

[BUF]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848779380765426110

Thanks for posting this. I want to hear more about that recording!

 

[Melted]

I don’t think the difficult part of this case for the prosecution will be proving that BG = Killer.

I think it will be proving BG = RA

Especially given that no one positively identified BG as RA and the differing witness descriptions of who they saw.

JMO

 

[HockeyMom330]

Or why the killer seemed more focused on Libby than Abby. I wonder if there was any prior connection between the two.

Some have implied that he focused more on Libby because she bore some resemblance to his daughter. Perhaps there was some sick fantasy at play.

Or maybe when he approached the girls on the bridge (and presumably pulled a gun on Abby) he expected Libby to run away, but when she stuck by her friend he got upset that his plan was thrown off. Even though he said "guys...down the hill" (implying that he was directing both of them) he may have only really wanted to abduct one of them, and perhaps this resulted in hostile feelings towards Libby.

Although it would be fairly easy to control both girls with a gun, at some point I think he lost control of the crime, with the two girls being more difficult to manage than he anticipated. Whether it be due to her size, personality, intelligence, or just situational factors, for some reason I think Libby was able to fight back more than Abby, which resulted in the differences in the way the girls were left.

IMO there was no prior connection between Libby or Abby and the BG (at least not one that the girls were aware of). If there was, I'd expect the girls to identify him on the video/audio recording. Also, if he was known to either one of the girls I doubt he would have needed a gun to abduct them. He could have used his prior connection to create trust and used a ruse for the abduction.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I would guess that the witnesses were scheduled to testify about the paperwork because the D is calling it out and questioning it. JMO

Thanks for your reply.
In real estate, as long as all the documents in a transaction were dated, signed, initialed, notarized and filed properly, no one was ever called to witness. I evidently wrongly assumed it was that way in criminal cases, too.

 

[HockeyMom330]

When I was a teen I would wear two bras so I wouldn't seem so flat chested. I know Abby is a little young for that but it's possible.

Was Abby wearing her own bra and re-dressed in Libbys?