Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #202

[Seattle1]

Did they say that at the trial or is it forthcoming?

From what was published about Dr. Roland Kohrs (Coroner) testimony, it doesn't appear that he testified from his autopsy report prepared for the victims, nor did he refer to it. I don't recall hearing/reading that the AR was admitted into evidence as we do just before a witness is called to testify. Perhaps the State intends on calling an expert witness beyond Dr. Kohrs to discuss and opine on time of death and we will learn more details from the full autopsy report at that time. No word if Kohrs was excused for if he will return on Thursday. JMO

'I don't know' | Investigator describes unexplained gap in data from Libby's phone | Day 5 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

 

[MassGuy]

The point is we don't know because as it stands currently, no tox screen was done, or that we know about.

Same with the stomach contents.

Autopsies involve toxicology. This is exactly like the rape kit thing. We don’t know if it’s come up yet, but this suggestion that completely standard things weren’t done is completely baseless.

 

[shonyakay]

I only found out this year (July or August) about the possibility of a sharp weapon being used.

Has it always been known that something like a knife was used in this case?

JMQ = Just My Question.

IIRC it was mentioned in RL's search warrant.

 

[Melted]

I only found out this year (July or August) about the possibility of a sharp weapon being used.

Has it always been known that something like a knife was used in this case?

JMQ = Just My Question.

There’s been pretty quantifiable proof they were killed with a blade since 2017, there were leaks of text messages from someone in abbys family who was on the search team and saw them that said they had their throats cut and his description ended up matching the crime scene perfectly, there were also early rumors about police going to stores looking for sales of a certain type of knife.

JMO

 

[Springrain]

I've been following the trial everyday but loosely - incredibly busy few weeks at work, it's been taking up a lot of time - and I am really, really worried about the outcome. JMO and just from what I've seen and what I feel.

 

[shonyakay]

There’s been pretty quantifiable proof they were killed with a blade since 2017, there were leaks of text messages from someone in abbys family who was on the search team and saw them that said they had their throats cut and his description ended up matching the crime scene perfectly, there were also early rumors about police going to stores looking for sales of a certain type of knife.

JMO

Well he got some things right but he also said Abby was stabbed in the heart and there has been no evidence of that.

 

[sunshineray]

I just got done listening to what happened in court yesterday on TMS. I want to comment on ISP Cecil's phone ttestimony and touch on the Pathologist's too (cannot remember his name).

It seems to me if you round off times, Libby's phone stops moving near 2:30pm on Feburary 13th. It then doesn't move again but some texts come flooding in at around 4:30am on the 14th. That's approximately 14 hours of time.

So for the Defense's theory to hold any water we're suppose to believe either the girls were taken DTH around 2:30pm on the 13th and put in a car and then driven around for 14 hours OR driven somewhere and held there, not moving for 14 hours OR the phone was left in the car and they were taken out of it somewhere, but never violated. They were not sexually violated during those 14 hours.

The phone wasn't physically turned off during those 14 hours or that would have logged. If the phone had exited that car steps would have been counted.

So what's the story then, about the 14 hours? What was the purpose? It wasn't to sexually violate them, so why? Must have been something very important to these supposed killer(s)? That's a long time, 14 hours.

Then after all that time, 14 hours, AND supposedly after a clean getaway, the killer(s) decided, lets go back to the exact spot the girls were taken from, strip them, again not to violate them, let one put clothes back on and then kill them both. Then the killer(s) turn the phone back on, texts flood in (I wonder if they muted the phone's sound too?) and put it under one of the girls.

And they did all in the above paragraph while the area was being actively searched by LE, FD and locals with flashlights and lighting brought in by the FD? The girls could I'm sure see flashlights around or even hear human activity yet didn't scream for help, didn't try and fight causing commotion that could be heard, it was all like a stealth Navy Seals operation?

No duct tape residue on their mouths, no ligature marks on their wrists or ankles. After 14 hours in the company of their captors, they just willingly marched into what was now friendly territory and not a struggle occured to alert the people out in the woods looking for them.

That's a lot of nonsense that will, IMO, insult the juror's intelligence.

All The Above Is Just My Opinion, any thoughts?

Edit to add link:

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covering true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

 

[MassGuy]

I've been following the trial everyday but loosely - incredibly busy few weeks at work, it's been taking up a lot of time - and I am really, really worried about the outcome. JMO and just from what I've seen and what I feel.

Nothing has really happened yet; it’s just setting the stage at this point.

The girls have been abducted and murdered. A man has been seen by witnesses who they say is BG. Outside of opening statements, Richard Allen’s name has barely been uttered.

I’m sure they’ll be getting to him soon.

 

[shonyakay]

Does anybody have any information about Richard Allen searching online about this crime?
Lawyer Lee touched on it very briefly.

 

[MassGuy]

I just got done listening to what happened in court yesterday on TMS. I want to comment on ISP Cecil's phone ttestimony and touch on the Pathologist's too (cannot remember his name).

It seems to me if you round off times, Libby's phone stops moving near 2:30pm on Feburary 13th. It then doesn't move again but some texts come flooding in at around 4:30am on the 14th. That's approximately 14 hours of time.

So for the Defense's theory to hold any water we're suppose to believe either the girls were taken DTH around 2:30pm on the 13th and put in a car and then driven around for 14 hours OR driven somewhere and held there, not moving for 14 hours OR the phone was left in the car and they were taken out of it somewhere, but never violated. They were not sexually violated during those 14 hours.

The phone wasn't physically turned off during those 14 hours or that would have logged. If the phone had exited that car steps would have been counted.

So what's the story then, about the 14 hours? What was the purpose? It wasn't to sexually violate them, so why? Must have been something very important to these supposed killer(s)? That's a long time, 14 hours.

Then after all that time, 14 hours, AND supposedly after a clean getaway, the killer(s) decided, lets go back to the exact spot the girls were taken from, strip them, again not to violate them, let one put clothes back on and then kill them both. Then the killer(s) turn the phone back on, texts flood in (I wonder if they muted the phone's sound too?) and put it under one of the girls.

And they did all in the above paragraph while the area was being actively searched by LE, FD and locals with flashlights and lighting brought in by the FD? The girls could I'm sure see flashlights around or even hear human activity yet didn't scream for help, didn't try and fight causing commotion that could be heard, it was all like a stealth Navy Seals operation?

No duct tape residue on their mouths, no ligature marks on their wrists or ankles. After 14 hours in the company of their captors, they just willingly marched into what was now friendly territory and not a struggle occured to alert the people out in the woods looking for them.

That's a lot of nonsense that will, IMO, insult the juror's intelligence.

All The Above Is Just My Opinion, any thoughts?

The fact that this even has to be argued, hurts my head.

 

[MassGuy]

Does anybody have any information about Richard Allen searching online about this crime?
Lawyer Lee touched on it very briefly.

The analyst was asked on cross if RA’s devices provided any connection to Abby and Libby. He said no, with the exception of Internet searches.

This would likely be outside his purview, and I expect another investigator to expand. I think there’s a lot of potential here.

 

[gremlin444]

Hmm...

My mind kept returning to several things: Abby's time to die being 5-10 min yet there being no sign of a scuffle under her body on the ground (yesterday's testimony). No apparent movement indicating her majorly moving around (clean hands, no disturbance) during her prolonged time of dying. No ligature marks. No screaming.

What if RA put Abby in a sleeper hold to choke her out enough to cause unconsciousness (using compression of the carotids? It wouldn't show bruising or damage like doing compression across the front of the throat would. Unconscoiusness happens quickly (6-10) seconds with those kinds of holds, and if you hold it longer than that the victim takes a while to wake up. He wouldn't be able to actively train a gun on Libby in the meantime, but her fear for her friend would have kept her there. Once Abby is out, lower to the ground, then cut her jugular.

 

[sunshineray]

Hmm...

My mind kept returning to several things: Abby's time to die being 5-10 min yet there being no sign of a scuffle under her body on the ground (yesterday's testimony). No apparent movement indicating her majorly moving around (clean hands, no disturbance) during her prolonged time of dying. No ligature marks. No screaming.

What if RA put Abby in a sleeper hold to choke her out enough to cause unconsciousness (using compression of the carotids? It wouldn't show bruising or damage like doing compression across the front of the throat would. Unconscoiusness happens quickly (6-10) seconds with those kinds of holds, and if you hold it longer than that the victim takes a while to wake up. He wouldn't be able to actively train a gun on Libby in the meantime, but her fear for her friend would have kept her there. Once Abby is out, lower to the ground, then cut her jugular.

Pathologist said Abby was likely unconscious. I'm thinking from the trauma, thank God she was </3 MO

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covering true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

 

[Seattle1]

10/23/24

Autopsy doctor describes Abby's and Libby's injuries | Trial Day 5 | DELPHI DEBRIEF​

 

[twall]

Your post was also talking about "so many dumps" of her phone being done. I linked you to the testimony on the dumps. There was not "so many" and when it was re-analysed in Aug 2024, it was because the data program had been updated.

There were several phone extractions. That's why I put so many dumps, meaning several. The WTHR reporters go into it at link.

 

[mrjitty]

It would be very apparent via the knowledgeC database if the phone was purposefully turned off.

JMO

Exactly!

this is the part of the discussion that has annoyed me for a long time. if the phone was physically switched off, then the logs for that exist?

people are making an inference of human action without the supporting evidence ie based off a layman inference.

 

[Slawsb]

Abby only had one, 2 inch wound on her neck. She was wearing a black sweatshirt (over-sized) which likely absorbed most of it.

She was wearing a gray zip up when this all started and was found wearing Libby's black sweatshirt after the murder

 

[MiniMoo]

There’s been pretty quantifiable proof they were killed with a blade since 2017, there were leaks of text messages from someone in abbys family who was on the search team and saw them that said they had their throats cut and his description ended up matching the crime scene perfectly, there were also early rumors about police going to stores looking for sales of a certain type of knife.

JMO

Thanks! Had no idea.

So much for certain information being kept confidential and under wraps.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[MiniMoo]

IIRC it was mentioned in RL's search warrant.

Had no idea - now I do.

JMT

 

[Niner]

Thursday, October 24th:
*Trial continues (Day 6) (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Held without bond.
Amended charges (1/18/24/granted 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial [8/1/24]. Carroll County
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon.
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-4 (10/18-22/24) reference post #99 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ders-richard-allen-arrested-202.726800/page-5
10/17/24 Update: Motions to be decided:
*Motion for Order on Designated Defense Representatives - ??
10/18/24 Docket update: Order or Judgment of the Court re Decorum Order regarding certain media entities. [On the first day of trial, the court claimed that photographers from the Associated Press, NBC & Gannett took photos of the jury. According to the Order, the court erased images from the cameras & banned the media members from the rest of the proceedings].
10/22/24 Docket update: Order or Judgment of the Court re Andrea Burkhart's Motion for Leave to intervene & for Public access to Court records-denied [Judge ruled that the YouTube personality who made the motion is not a party to the case and the court is not required to provide the recording].
10/22/24 Docket Update: Order or Judgment of the Court. [Judge Gull ruled against a request from the defense that a witness be allowed to testify regarding metallurgy & firearms. The state filed a motion to exclude his testimony, arguing that Dr. William Tobin is an expert in metallurgy, but not firearms. After review, Judge Gull ruled that Dr. Tobin is not an expert in firearms & has had no training in firearms identification & has never conducted a firearms examination. She ruled that his testimony is inadmissible]. For all motions see post #504, page 26, Thread 202.
10/23/24 Docket update: Motion to admit evidence of Odinism/Norse Paganism/Ritualistic killing filed by Allen. Defense has filed a motion to admit evidence in the court regarding Odinism & the theory the girls were murdered as a “ritualistic killing.”
10/23/24 Wednesday, Trial Day 5: State witnesses: Sarah Carbaugh, a lifelong Delphi resident who lived near the trail. Dr. Roland Kohr, a forensic pathologist based out of Terre Haute. He performed autopsies on Libby & Abby. First Sgt. Christopher D. Cecil of Indiana State Police [examined Libby's & Allen's phones].
For more info see post #152 (Day 5 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/...ders-richard-allen-arrested-202.726800/page-8
Trial continues on Thursday, 10/24/24 @ 9am.