Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

[m00c0w]

When RA made the change on his license, had the suspect description already been released? I can’t recall how quickly that came out.

If it had, it means he changed his height from outside the range given for BG to into it, which is even weirder.

I don’t think a possible height was released until the sketch in July 2017. However, the first photos were apparently released on 2/15/17:

ISP wants to identify this man from Delphi trail

Indiana State Police are hoping someone can help them identify the man in this photo who was walking on the Delphi Historic Trail around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were there on Monday.

www.wrtv.com

It seems likely he wanted to change how he appeared in state databases because he was afraid they’d do a query for people that were his actual height and weight, and he’d come up as a potential suspect… along with him putting himself there, that would be bad news.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

He sure does have a lot of something.

Having a bout of apparent forgetfulness that resulted in changing the hours of being on the trail so they closer match the time of the murders is just unreal.
MOO

are you suggesting Dulin framed him but then forgot about it for 5 years?

 

[ClearAhead]

Yeah. People wanted bombshells and yesterday delivered them. According to MS reporting this statement by the ME came as a total shock to Rozzi.

Source,

MOO.

Their account was kind of fascinating. They said he was so upset that his hand which was holding a piece of paper was shaking.

 

[shonyakay]

Anyone else catch when Lawyer Lee described the defense asking potential jurors how they would feel if a defendant destroyed evidence?

Very interesting question.

 

[TristanP]

I dunno. Wouldn’t you want to call a convicted sexual predator who had contact with one of the victims?

What do you see as the pitfalls here?

No pitfalls. Defense is going to be able to question him about all the things (lies) LE told him when they were trying to get him to confess to killing the girls. The prosecution will then have to try to repair by explaining that LE can lie, with no repercussions, to anyone in the course of an investigation, even in an attempt to coerce a confession.

 

[AugustWest]

@Niner

All Orders and one Motion filed as of 1:10 pm EST for today.

Spoiler: 10/24 Docket

Appearance Filed Appearance For Party: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/24/2024​

Motion to Quash Filed Motion to Quash Subpoena Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 10/24/2024​

Order Issued Court's Preliminary Jury Instructions. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/18/2024​

Order Issued Order Re: Parties Stipulation on Evidentiary Matters. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/18/2024​

Order Issued The Court, having had the State's Motion in Limine under advisement (regarding compositie sketches) now grants the Motion and prohibits the defense from using the composite sketches in the Trial of this cause. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/18/2024​

Order Issued Comes now the Court and having reviewed Defendant Allen's Motion for Order on Designated Defense Representatives, now grants said Motion and authorizes Max Baker to act as designated representative of the Defense Team during the course of the trial in this cause. Accordingly, Max Baker will be excluded as a potential defense witness pursuant to Rule 615 of the Indiana Rules of Trial Procedure Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/14/2024​

Order Issued Order re: Return of confiscated equipment. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/21/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 14, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/14/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 15, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/15/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 18, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/18/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 19, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/19/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 21, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/24/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 22, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/22/2024​

Order Issued Daily Order for October 23, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/23/2024​

Order Issued Order re: Pending Motions. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Baldwin, Andrew Joseph Noticed: Rozzi, Bradley Anthony Noticed: Luttrull, James David JR Noticed: Diener, Stacey Lynn Noticed: Auger, Jennifer Jones Order Signed: 10/17/2024​

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[photographer4]

More from Dulin's testimony under cross:

At 10:35 a.m. defense attorney Brad Rozzi begins cross-examining Dulin. Rozzi said Allen called law enforcement in February. Rozzi said Allen suggested meeting at the grocery story because he was already on his way there.

Dulin said he cannot recall the appearance or demeanor of Allen during the meeting. Rozzi said the handwritten notes would be better evidence of the meeting than the electronic report and that Dulin said in a March 2024 deposition that he had “no independent recollection” of what Allen said to him in their 2017 meeting.

Rozzi said that anyone could purchase a fishing license for another person.

Dulin testified that he was also in charge of calling phone numbers that pinged off of cell towers during the time of the crime. He said he canvassed the crime scene the day before he met with Allen.

Dulin told the jury that while he was at the scene he found branches piled up with blood on them.

Rozzi asked Dulin if he saw deer standing in the woods hear the bridge, Dulin said there were. Rozzi asked if it is not uncommon to find shell casings in the woods.

Judge Gull stepped in and said to Rozzi, “If you’re going to impeach him, impeach him properly.”

Rozzi asked Dulin if he was familiar with “Smith and Wesson.” Dulin said he was.

At 11:06 a.m. McLeland asked Dulin about the credit card used to purchase Allen’s fishing licenses. Dulin replied that he did not know what username was used to purchase the licenses.
Dulin told the jury in re-direct by the defense that he has not thought of Allen between 2017 and 2022.

At 11:13 a.m. The jury asked Dulin “What was Allen’s hair like?” Dulin replied that he didn’t know.

Source: Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

So DD could have written down anything, and he can't remember anything outside of what he wrote. The Fishing license may have been purchased by someone else who may have guessed at RA's height... oh man. Not brilliant imo.

 

[shonyakay]

Thanks.

So as such it's still the state's contention or theoretical timeline until proven by evidence/ testimony?

It would be interesting to check off each time stamp against what we've heard in court as we go.

JMO

Not theory. All evidence so far in the trial has proven this timeline to be solid.

 

[Inthedetails]

I don’t think a possible height was released until the sketch in July 2017. However, the first photos were apparently released on 2/15/17:

ISP wants to identify this man from Delphi trail

Indiana State Police are hoping someone can help them identify the man in this photo who was walking on the Delphi Historic Trail around the time Abigail Williams and Liberty German were there on Monday.

www.wrtv.com

It seems likely he wanted to change how he appeared in state databases because he was afraid they’d do a query for people that were his actual height and weight, and he’d come up as a potential suspect… along with him putting himself there, that would be bad news.

JMO

And didn't he talk to a conservation officer at first? Maybe he thought there would be some scrutiny of things like fishing licenses because of that?? He was skittish with DNR (who take regulations very seriously), I think. I think he was doing subtle stuff to....hide in plain sight.

Again, the height thing would be a nothing-burger all alone, but this isn't all alone. It's stacked with other odd actions.

Drip, drip, it's all the drops in the bucket that fill it up.

jmo

 

[m00c0w]

No pitfalls. Defense is going to be able to question him about all the things (lies) LE told him when they were trying to get him to confess to killing the girls. The prosecution will then have to try to repair by explaining that LE can lie, with no repercussions, to anyone in the course of an investigation, even in an attempt to coerce a confession.

I’m not sure they did lie to him, though. In the end, he gave an elaborate tale of how his father killed the girls while he (KK) waited, and TK threw the knife into the Wabash after. Police followed up on all of this and determined he wasn’t being truthful. Going down that path would absolutely be a pitfall because it would paint him as an unreliable witness, and also show that the police seriously investigated other people (and excluded them) before landing on RA. It wasn’t a laser target on RA the whole time.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

Again, it’s just interesting. I’m sure there’s a lot more where that came from.

The change on the fishing license is interesting. This is a yearly renewal and this man has been whatever height he is for likely 20+ years at this point. He sure didn't grow 2 inches as a 40 something year old adult. So did he change this on his drivers license also.. what height does THAT show?

I think he spoke to DD, who he knew to be the conservation officer or at least he did once he talked to him. So it likely ate away at him over those few weeks and then he went to renew that and because it was in his mind.. he changed it. Did he think DD was going to pull up his fishing license and see his heights? Interesting for sure that this document would be something a person would connect to a conservation officer (game warden).

Google tells me fishing licenses in Indiana run April 1 to March 31. Interesting he renewed his ON April 1.. was he just waiting for that day so he could make that edit to his height or did he just really like to fish and he needed to buy it asap once it was available to buy?

 

[mrjitty]

I’m not sure they did lie to him, though. In the end, he gave an elaborate tale of how his father killed the girls while he (KK) waited, and TK threw the knife into the Wabash after. Police followed up on all of this and determined he wasn’t being truthful. Going down that path would absolutely be a pitfall because it would paint him as an unreliable witness, and also show that the police seriously investigated other people (and excluded them) before landing on RA. It wasn’t a laser target on RA the whole time.

JMO

Gull won’t let any of this in IMO and it doesn’t really help then anyway as they need a SODDI who looks like Bridge Guy.

 

[Yemelyan]

Court is back in session at 11:35 a.m. as the state called Steve Mullin for the third time.

Mullin said he got a call from Richard Allen on Sept. 21, 2022. He reached out to Dulin to ask if there was any additional info. Mullin said Dulin forwarded information to him and Tony Liggett; after learning there were two cars registered to Allen, he went to Hoosier Harvestore to look for them.

He told the jury that Tony Liggett went to the CVS and found Allen’s car and then they looked for it on the Harvestore footage.

Mullin said Liggett looked at the video and found the vehicle matching the description. The timestamp was 1:27 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017.

Baldwin interjected, telling Mullin that “it’s only your opinion” that your car matches.

Source: Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

 

[m00c0w]

Court is back in session at 11:35 a.m. as the state called Steve Mullin for the third time.

Mullin said he got a call from Richard Allen on Sept. 21, 2022. He reached out to Dulin to ask if there was any additional info. Mullin said Dulin forwarded information to him and Tony Liggett; after learning there were two cars registered to Allen, he went to Hoosier Harvestore to look for them.

He told the jury that Tony Liggett went to the CVS and found Allen’s car and then they looked for it on the Harvestore footage.

Mullin said Liggett looked at the video and found the vehicle matching the description. The timestamp was 1:27 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017.

Baldwin interjected, telling Mullin that “it’s only your opinion” that your car matches.

Source: Delphi Murders trial: Day 6 live blog

Lol the defense is getting kind of testy.

JMO

 

[Slawsb]

dang, can't keep up with the threads!

Did any witness say where exactly at the crime scene they found Libby's phone?

Under Abby's body

 

[BUF]

The change on the fishing license is interesting. This is a yearly renewal and this man has been whatever height he is for likely 20+ years at this point. He sure didn't grow 2 inches as a 40 something year old adult. So did he change this on his drivers license also.. what height does THAT show?

I think he spoke to DD, who he knew to be the conservation officer or at least he did once he talked to him. So it likely ate away at him over those few weeks and then he went to renew that and because it was in his mind.. he changed it. Did he think DD was going to pull up his fishing license and see his heights? Interesting for sure that this document would be something a person would connect to a conservation officer (game warden).

Google tells me fishing licenses in Indiana run April 1 to March 31. Interesting he renewed his ON April 1.. was he just waiting for that day so he could make that edit to his height or did he just really like to fish and he needed to buy it asap once it was available to buy?

Wasn’t one of his admissions is that he was watching fish that day?

 

[Yemelyan]

So DD could have written down anything, and he can't remember anything outside of what he wrote. The Fishing license may have been purchased by someone else who may have guessed at RA's height... oh man. Not brilliant imo.

According to @MaxLewisTV on X (a reporter with FOX59) on re-direct McLeland elicited the info that it WAS RA's credit card that was used for the license purchase.

 

[snooptroop88]

Just curious, whose idea was it to be interviewed about murdered kids in the Save-a-Lot parking lot?

Home not ok. Police station not ok.

Save-a-Lot parking lot-- well, ok!

Dulin? Or someone else? OMGoodness, was that Rick's idea??

And by the way, the February 18 date on that interview with Dulin. It's a little late, the girls were murdered 13th-14th. "Rick" had seen unidentified girls of a young age out on those trails the very day young girls disappeared on the trails. Rick didn't get a good look at those girls he saw, he'd have no way to know those girls he saw didn't include the girls that turned up missing and then dead.

Where was Rick's sense of urgency?

 

[BUF]

Lol the defense is getting kind of testy.

JMO

Not “getting” testy, but sounds that they have been that way with a lot of witnesses

 

[TristanP]

Their account was kind of fascinating. They said he was so upset that his hand which was holding a piece of paper was shaking.

MS is kind of pathetic in their attempts to make the defense attorneys look bad. As if Rozzi isn’t experienced and professional enough to conceal any type of reaction while he’s in the courtroom? Ridiculous.