Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #206

[Melted]

In a way, yes. In order to make a motion for directed verdict, a party has to show that sufficient facts have not been established to meet the elements of the crime. I would imagine that in the defense's estimation the only evidence of "removes another person" is the words "down the hill." Without that element, the prosecution can't proceed on that theory of their case.

I won't speak for the defense, but attorneys have a different view of "truth" during a trial than most. Attorneys realize we are in an imperfect and adversarial system where the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.

Do you believe the defense will make a motion for directed verdict after the state rests? What does that entail?

 

[SouthEnd]

In a way, yes. In order to make a motion for directed verdict, a party has to show that sufficient facts have not been established to meet the elements of the crime. I would imagine that in the defense's estimation the only evidence of "removes another person" is the words "down the hill." Without that element, the prosecution can't proceed on that theory of their case.

I won't speak for the defense, but attorneys have a different view of "truth" during a trial than most. Attorneys realize we are in an imperfect and adversarial system where the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.

As an outsider, that's my own impression too. I think the priority for D attorneys is to put up a vigorous defence and attack any weaknesses of the P, not to discover/defend the truth as the layperson defines truth.

 

[ClearAhead]

Do you genuinely believe they’d spend years chasing their tails, extensively investigating numerous people, if they actually knew they had this misfiled piece of paper?

That makes zero sense, and is wholly refuted by the facts.

That statement was in fact misfiled, with his name transposed with his address.

Kathy Shank explained on the stand, exactly how she found it, and what came next.

This delay brought them back to a place that they should have been all along. This conspiracy stuff is baseless and gets us nowhere.

Likewise, no place for allegations of witnesses committing perjury on the witness stand with no proof.

 

[AugustWest]

Perhaps a bombshell... it's needed. I believe RA committed the heinous crime, but it doesnt matter what I think... it is more important what the evidence shows and what the jurors vote. More evidence is needed, though.

Transparency is much needed in the courtroom. It's been a bit hard to follow since the trial is not live streamed. My understanding is that the courts work for the people not that the people work for the courts, but its my opinion, only.

Thank goodness Libby had a sixth sense something wasn't right and started recording.

Abby & Libby true crime angels, watching over young victims.

Just my opinion its important that the public know what happened to these young girls. They never made it to high school due to a mad person.

moo

Finding a happy medium between access to the courts and the need for transparency is a tough endeavor. We as a society have to find a way to do a better job with the balance.

 

[AugustWest]

Do you believe the defense will make a motion for directed verdict after the state rests? What does that entail?

Yes, I do. It will be a document that will lay out the law regarding when a directed verdict is proper. It will include the definitions of murder and kidnapping, and will point to the deficiencies of the prosecution's case as to the elements of those two offenses. Do I think it will be granted? Probably not. But they will make the motion in my opinion.

 

[gremlin444]

For what it’s worth I think that more than one person was 100% involved. The coincidence of Liebarts report of the man hiding on the north side of the bridge that morning is too much for me to move past.

JMO

Do you have a link so that I could read about this? I wasn't here for the years of the case, and Googling isn't popping up anything.

 

[FrostedGlass]

For what it’s worth I think that more than one person was 100% involved. The coincidence of Liebarts report of the man hiding on the north side of the bridge that morning is too much for me to move past.

JMO

It's easy to get north and south mixed up. They live near the end of the bridge (south) on the private drive road.

 

[ClearAhead]

OMG, RA thinks Holeman handed him a compliment.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 10 live blog

Day 10 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins at 9 a.m. Tuesday. Follow our live blog for the latest developments.

www.wishtv.com

Holeman then tells Allen the media will portray him “in a certain way” and asks, “Are you the mastermind?”

Allen responds, “Mastermind? OK…”

 

[Melted]

It's easy to get north and south mixed up. They live near the end of the bridge (south) on the private drive road.

Thank you!

 

[steeltowngirl]

Respectfully snipped

The answer to this question lies within these words:

Sec. 2. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force, from one place to another commits kidnapping.

2024 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 3. Kidnapping and Confinement :: 35-42-3-2. Kidnapping

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

If BG didn't "remove another person" then one of the elements of kidnapping is not met.

Libby and Abby were removed, from the bridge, down a hill, to a wooded area, then murdered. How could the element of kidnapping not be met?

In Indiana, "removing a person" in the context of kidnapping means knowingly or intentionally taking another person from one place to another by using fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force; essentially, abducting someone against their will.

2024 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 3. Kidnapping and Confinement :: 35-42-3-2. Kidnapping

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

 

[Melted]

OMG, RA thinks Holeman handed him a compliment.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 10 live blog

Day 10 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins at 9 a.m. Tuesday. Follow our live blog for the latest developments.

www.wishtv.com

Holeman then tells Allen the media will portray him “in a certain way” and asks, “Are you the mastermind?”

Allen responds, “Mastermind? OK…”

I don’t see how you take that as Allen believing he received a compliment. Holeman was accusing him of being the mastermind behind a conspiracy to murder innocent children

 

[Emma Peel]

That is PRECISELY the point. This is the one point of verification he has. And it doesn’t exist. The house of cards falls.

Respectfully, I don't think we know - quite yet - that this verification does or does not exist.

Consider: RA asserts he was at the trails - but before 2:13 that day.

Full day ping records (including time records outside the LE timeline) could confirm that RA's phone was at the trails before 2:13 that day.

Or not.

JMHO

 

[tlcya]

Libby and Abby were removed, from the bridge, down a hill, to a wooded area, then murdered. How could the element of kidnapping not be met?

In Indiana, "removing a person" in the context of kidnapping means knowingly or intentionally taking another person from one place to another by using fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force; essentially, abducting someone against their will.

2024 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 3. Kidnapping and Confinement :: 35-42-3-2. Kidnapping

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

I suspect the defense argument will be that there is no proof that the girls were forced unwillingly down the hill because a gun or other coercive weapon is not seen on the video, nor are they seen on the video being forced or coerced down the hill. I don't think this will be successful.

 

[AugustWest]

Libby and Abby were removed, from the bridge, down a hill, to a wooded area, then murdered. How could the element of kidnapping not be met?

In Indiana, "removing a person" in the context of kidnapping means knowingly or intentionally taking another person from one place to another by using fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force; essentially, abducting someone against their will.

2024 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 3. Kidnapping and Confinement :: 35-42-3-2. Kidnapping

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

There is a video of a man walking near the girls. There is no definitive proof that the man in the video was the person who removed the girls from the bridge. The proof that this man ordered the girls by force anywhere only lies in the words "down the hill" and the reference to a gun. You don't physically see him forcing them anywhere. You can't say for certain that is his voice. There is no tie of BG to the actual murder scene. I am not saying that BG didn't do these things. I am saying that as a matter of law, you have to meet the elements or there is no crime, and that is the argument (in a very limited nutshell) one would make against all elements of the crime being met.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I suspect the defense argument will be that there is no proof that the girls were forced unwillingly down the hill because a gun or other coercive weapon is not seen on the video, nor are they seen on the video being forced or coerced down the hill. I don't think this will be successful.

Thanks ticya. I have been concerned about the lack of reporting, or at least the lack of clarity, around whether a gun was seen or heard on the audio portion of the BG recording.

 

[m00c0w]

Yes, I do. It will be a document that will lay out the law regarding when a directed verdict is proper. It will include the definitions of murder and kidnapping, and will point to the deficiencies of the prosecution's case as to the elements of those two offenses. Do I think it will be granted? Probably not. But they will make the motion in my opinion.

Any idea why they’d do that but not try to get the felony murder charges dismissed pre-trial on similar grounds? Seems like the case would be much easier to send to jury with only two murder charges, from the defense’s perspective. Now they’re having to battle on two fronts, which at times seems somewhat contradictory and messy.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

4:05 P.M.: RICHARD ALLEN’S TIME AT WESTVILLE CORRECTIONAL UNIT​

Court returned from lunch at 1:45 p.m., starting with testimony from state witness John Galipeau, the former warden at the Westville Correctional Unit, a state prison. Richard Allen was imprisoned at Westville following his arrest until December 2023.

Galipeau said Allen lived in Apod A1, which included four cells for inmates on suicide watch. He described the cell as a 12 foot by 8 foot cell, same size as the other cells in the unit. The cell included a bed bolted to the ground, a toilet, three sets of clothes, and two tablets to download apps, make calls, listen to music, etc. He also said each suicide watch cell has a camera on the ceiling and the lights were on 24 hours a day. Inmates on suicide watch were seen by medical daily, had recreational time five times a week, and showered three times a week like other inmates. Galipeau added that Allen saw his family twice while at Westville, being the only inmate granted that privilege.

Galipeau said Allen was first watched by other inmates before correctional officers. News 8’s Kyla Russell reports this shift only happened after he received legal mail on April 3, 2023. Galipeau added that Allen used the toilet in the cell, but also used the toilet water to wash his face.

The state then showed the jury Exhibit #292: Richard Allen’s request for an interview. It read, “I am ready to officially confess to killing Abby and Libby. I hope I get the chance to apologize to their families.”

Galipeau described the several times Allen admitted and apologized to him about the murders. Allen also told him that he threw out the box cutter used to kill the girls in a CVS dumpster. It wasn’t clear if this was the CVS Allen was employed at. Despite the confession, Galipeau said Allen’s treatment did not change.

Much more at link.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 10 live blog

Day 10 in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins at 9 a.m. Tuesday. Follow our live blog for the latest developments.

www.wishtv.com

 

[SouthEnd]

There is a video of a man walking near the girls. There is no definitive proof that the man in the video was the person who removed the girls from the bridge. The proof that this man ordered the girls by force anywhere only lies in the words "down the hill" and the reference to a gun. You don't physically see him forcing them anywhere. You can't say for certain that is his voice. There is no tie of BG to the actual murder scene. I am not saying that BG didn't do these things. I am saying that as a matter of law, you have to meet the elements or there is no crime, and that is the argument (in a very limited nutshell) one would make against all elements of the crime being met.

Could the P argue, with witnesses, that the girls would not have gone DTH or followed a strange man, to establish that the only reasonable scenario to lead them DTH was BG? And the rest is proving RA = BG

Just my own weak theory, playing devil's advocate

 

[maamager]

as

My identical twin sister and I both have this condition. It is usually not precipitated by anything specific for us. It just happens and we can tell when it’s coming on.

According to whoever is with us, it doesn’t last long.

Certainly, as you’ve said, nowhere long enough to bleed out, if we were in fact bleeding.

JMO and experience.

Seconding as another person with an identical twin sister with the same conditions — I will say that my spells are heavy with stress or extreme emotions of either flavor. I know that once I’m “out”, the vertigo can take an extreme hold on me with a cold sweat, dizziness, etc. Especially if I am injured on my way down. Just my two cents!

 

[Vern]

I would think if he really didn't do this then seeing a photo of a man that looks just like him 2 days after this crime would make him think to himself, dang that guy is wearing the exact same thing I did!

Of is the fact he was recorded on the bridge in the outfit he was wearing a constant reminder of what exactly he was wearing that day?

JMO

Or, another possibility IMO, it was his wife - KA - that saw the photo when it came out and recognized him in it.

At that time, rumor was that it may be from a trail cam and polce were only seeking him as a 'witness'.
IMO, I imagine it goes down:

KA - Rick, you need to call the police and talk to them; they have a pic of you and are looking to talk to you as a witness.
RA - Well I didn't see the girls.
KA - Call them Rick, they have your pic.
RA - But I didn't see the girls.
KA - I'm calling them - you need to talk to them.

Rick leaves his deets with the phone line. KA is in the room and knws he's talked to them. She feels better.
DD Contacts RA back to arrange a meeting. KA is present when the call comes in.
DD: Hi, I need to meet with you.
RA: OK, yeah we need to meet so i can talk to you.
DD: What's your address so I can come over and talk to you?
RA: That's not going to work. (Because KA is home ... and she knows he's the guy in the pic and how he's dressed)
DD: How about you make your way down here to the station then?
RA: That's not going to work either. (No way in hades is he going near that place!)
DD: Well, when and where can we meet Rick?
RA: I'm on my way to Save-A-Lot on an errand, so how about *whatever* timing?
DD: See you there.

_KA hears only one side of the conversation .... and Rick is headed off to talk with the "investigators".

ONLY

DD is not an "investigator" He's simply one of the hundred or so who got brought into the case to take and talk to tipsters.

DD meets with RA and takes the tip.
DD files the tip in back at the office to be followed up by the actual "investigators". All coinciding with the hudreds of tips coming in about RL from the masses who've now just seen him on the news saying "down the hill".

DD's own tipsheet also shows exactly how this tip erroneously got cleared given everything going on at the time IMO:

Investigator looks at the "Required Follow Up" portion of the tip (the BLUF - Bottom Line Up Front);

Follow up required = "Who are the three girls walking in the area of Freedom Bridge?"
Investigator - "Asked and Answered". By the 18th they already knew who the three girls were. Nothing else to follow up on this one. And .... cleared.

A scenario like the above explains why RA stated that he came forward at the urging of Kathy. Why he didn't want LE around her when he talked to them ... s she would have no idea what he was telling thm that did or did not jive with what he had told her. IMO.

_Probable Cause Affidavit.pdf

drive.google.com