Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #212

[Tortoise]

Oh how I wish the judge would allow cameras in just for the closing arguments. Even if they weren't allowed to film any exhibits.

 

[arielilane]

2:37 P.M. REMAINING REBUTTAL WITNESSES TESTIFY.​

At 1:16 p.m., Judge Gull returns to the court room. The jury enters shortly after.

Defense attorney Brad Rozzi begins cross-examination of Dr. John Martin, a license psychiatrist. Rozzi tells the jury that Dr. Martin does not have a traditional bachelor’s degree from and American university. Rozzi says Martin was terminated from a position in Florida. He says Martin was involved with lawsuits with a person that was in solitary confinement.

Prosecutor Stacey Diener calls for a sidebar and Judge Gull tells Rozzi to “move on.”

Martin tells the jury he went to Westville because there was a 200 to 250 case backlog. Rozzi describes SMI, or severe mental illness. Diener objects. Martin says solitary can cause or exaggerate mental illness.

Martin tells the jury t hat Allen could “possibly” move in and out of psychosis.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 17 live blog

Richard Allen, accused of murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017, is on trial in Carroll County, Indiana. The defense rested their case at the start of Day 17, and are expected to give closing arguments soon.

wishtv.com

 

[photographer4]

2:37 P.M. REMAINING REBUTTAL WITNESSES TESTIFY.​

At 1:16 p.m., Judge Gull returns to the court room. The jury enters shortly after.

Defense attorney Brad Rozzi begins cross-examination of Dr. John Martin, a license psychiatrist. Rozzi tells the jury that Dr. Martin does not have a traditional bachelor’s degree from and American university. Rozzi says Martin was terminated from a position in Florida. He says Martin was involved with lawsuits with a person that was in solitary confinement.

Prosecutor Stacey Diener calls for a sidebar and Judge Gull tells Rozzi to “move on.”

Martin tells the jury he went to Westville because there was a 200 to 250 case backlog. Rozzi describes SMI, or severe mental illness. Diener objects. Martin says solitary can cause or exaggerate mental illness.

Martin tells the jury t hat Allen could “possibly” move in and out of psychosis.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 17 live blog

Richard Allen, accused of murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017, is on trial in Carroll County, Indiana. The defense rested their case at the start of Day 17, and are expected to give closing arguments soon.

wishtv.com

Why has the state let these people anywhere NEAR RA? Does it not occur to them thing like this can really look bad to jurors??? UGHH.

 

[Mauig’ma]

When they say he was given involuntary injections of Halderol, how does that work? Did they strap him to a medical cot and physically force him to take this medicine? Did RA even know he had been given the shot and/or what it was? Sounds like they did this multiple times. I would think after the first time that he would know what was coming and physically resist. So would they force him to let them strap him down by wrestling him into the straps or what? I just don't know how all that works, but it sounds like it could have been a messy, violent process. I guess I didn't realize that we ever forced detainees to take meds.

When they’re acting out and uncontrollable I feel detainees should be forced to have meds imo

 

[lisette]

I am shocked at how little the prosecution brought to this trial. There is no way you can convict RA beyond a reasonable doubt based on what was brought to trial. Before the trial I believed RA was guilty. After the trial, I believe he is an innocent man that was railroaded.

With the limited information that we were allowed to hear and see, we really can’t judge accurately. I am confident that there is much we don’t know, but that the jury will come to the right verdict, as they saw and heard it all.JMO

 

[mrjitty]

When they’re acting out and uncontrollable I feel detainees should be forced to have meds imo

Yeah. Most would be aware of what happens in clinics where people are held involuntarily and medicated in some instances despite just being regular law abided citizens

It’s not like you can always walk out or decide for yourself.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

Just a legal question if anyone knows off hand - when RA was being given medications forced / against his will - did the corrections staff who decided this / administered this have to consult with anyone outside of the prison system to do so? Once it was done, did they have to notify anyone - eg: B & R or perhaps RA's wife or... What (if any) oversight was there of this process? I have no idea what the norm would be or what would be required, so just curious. I'm about to google but maybe someone knows?

 

[steeltowngirl]

It is too bad as a society that more assistance for mental health issues isn't available to those who struggle with a mental health condition. Depression alone is challenging for many.

Perhaps, the murder of two innocent children could have been prevented?

I agree that there should be more help for mental health issues.
Noting that the vast majority of people with depression will not commit murder.
I think RA likely has additional very serious mental or personality disorders, and depression is only one of them.

jmo

 

[tlcya]

I am shocked at how little the prosecution brought to this trial. There is no way you can convict RA beyond a reasonable doubt based on what was brought to trial. Before the trial I believed RA was guilty. After the trial, I believe he is an innocent man that was railroaded.

Question: IF LE wanted to railroad an innocent man for these murders, why would they simply have not pinned it on property owner RL? He is dead and therefore they wouldn't even have to be troubled with the effort and expense of a trial.

 

[Appletreefarm35]

Why has the state let these people anywhere NEAR RA? Does it not occur to them thing like this can really look bad to jurors??? UGHH.

You vastly overestimate the availability of mental health professionals in general, let alone in a correctional institution. This is a nationwide problem, but Indiana is a healthcare desert. The prosecutor doesn't get to pick the medical providers that RA sees.

 

[Momofthreeboys]

Wasn't KA supposed to testify for the defense?

Not everyone on a submitted witness list gets called usually. Both prosecution and defense generally make a witness list that is every possibility. Prosecution probably could not have called her and defense didn't need her as the focus was on the alleged confession that he abused other family members so those family members testified to rebut the "confession".

 

[taylorss]

Did closing arguments really start this morning?

 

[acehard]

Oh how I wish the judge would allow cameras in just for the closing arguments. Even if they weren't allowed to film any exhibits.

She should have allowed cameras for the whole trial and only allowed publishing after the verdict. MOO

 

[Vern]

Am I correct in remembering correctly that it was after the video image of BG was released that RA called in to LE to report he was on the bridge?

You are correct.

A link to Thread #1 and the very first post/mention where "Bridge Guy" first appeared on this site on 15 February 2017 --- and that was a mere 3 minutes after LE sent out there ALERT flier seeking informaton on him ....

Post in thread 'IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #1'

Feb 15, 2017

https://www.facebook.com/WRTV6/posts/10154526933569092



Sorry to post this screenshot. Also I am not sure how to do direct link. But three minutes ago saying some along the lines of do you know this man.

Obviously did not format right and might need some other source so mods please do as you will!

• thesensitivechild

News article from 15 Feb 2017 with photo of BG included:

Police in Indiana release grainy picture of man they want to question

Police appealed for the public’s help late on Wednesday to identify a man they were seeking in connection with the double homicide of two teenage girls in Indiana.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And the very first mention of a "brown hoodie" under the jacket (though this was qite interestig with hindsight being 20/20 and all that jazz):

Post in thread 'IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #1'

Feb 15, 2017

I agree looks like a hooodie. My reply is very slow. Is anyone else's?

I think he's wearing a brown hoodie under his jacket, too.


Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

• IllinoisMissing

 

[photographer4]

You vastly overestimate the availability of mental health professionals in general, let alone in a correctional institution. This is a nationwide problem, but Indiana is a healthcare desert. The prosecutor doesn't get to pick the medical providers that RA sees.

Who hires them? If it is an outside agency, then imo, the onus is on them to be sure of who they're sending to see patients.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Don't these people who give depositions get signed copies? I think I see a pattern of their more recent recall being in favor of the prosecution. MOO
[snips]
"Martin says he has treated a pre-trial detainee in prison that had no criminal history before. Rozzi shows Martin his previous deposition and Martin agrees that he earlier said he had not treated a pre-trial detainee in a prison before.
...
He tells the jury about working on a computer off-site at times, Diener objects to this testimony.
...
He says he did not ask Allen if he had lawyers when he met with him in Nov. of 2022. Martin says that meeting was an interview and not a formal psychiatric visit. He says in a report from that same month that Allen had used alcohol socially."

Delphi Murders trial: Day 17 live blog

Richard Allen, accused of murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017, is on trial in Carroll County, Indiana. The defense rested their case at the start of Day 17, and are expected to give closing arguments soon.

wishtv.com

 

[al66pine]

Jurors Talking Among Selves? Jury Instructions?

Are they not supposed to talk amongst themselves?

@photographer4
Hope this helps clarify Judge's preliminary Jury Instructions.

Briefly:
During trial, jurors are not to discuss the case, EXCEPT that jurors may discuss evidence during RECESSES when ALL jurors are in PRESENT in the JURY ROOM and reserve judgment about the outcome of the case until deliberations begin.

Exact text:
Page 12 of link shows paragraph re "jurors talking among themselves" in the PRELIMINARY Jury Instructions (starting on page 7 of 13) Judge Gull read in court on first day.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/24/Jury-instructions-1.pdf

Before the jury begins deliberating, Judge Gull is to read them aloud again and to provide a copy to each juror.

----------------------------
ETA: @Vern I jumped ahead to answer the Q. by @photographer4, so ended up repeating largely what your post said before reading your comment. GMTA.

 

[vinayd]

ETA to add initials:

At 2:13 p.m. the jury asked questions:

1. Did the oral haldol continue after June 20, 2023? Martin answers yes.
2. What time did you meet with Allen on June 20, 2023? Martin says early in the morning.
3. Based on the video, could this presentation be consistent with faking? Martin says no.
4. Is it possible for Allen to slip in and out of psychosis in a 24-hour period? Martin says yes

At 2:15 p.m. the state says it has no other rebuttal witnesses. Gull tells the jury “you have now heard all arguments in this case.”

The jury exits the court room at 2:16 p.m. Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin revisits jury instructions wanting to add a statement of confessions. The state objects. The defense withdraws the request.

Baldwin again brings up an offer of proof involving a man named EF, who is connected to the defense’s Odinism defense. The state says this does not matter because the defense has rested.

Baldwin says he wants EF addressed because he did not respond to a subpoena. Judge Gull says she already ruled he would not testify.

Court is in recess at 2:27 p.m.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 17 live blog

 

[Appletreefarm35]

Who hires them? If it is an outside agency, then imo, the onus is on them to be sure of who they're sending to see patients.

I don't know specifically for Dr. Martin; I haven't seen it reported whether he was employed by DOC or was a contractor. Dr. Walla was a contractor.

 

[minor4th]

Martin explained he wanted to put Allen on Haldol (Haloperidol), an antipsychotic drug commonly used to treat schizophrenia, but Allen’s mental state was such that he could not consent to treatment.

This was in April when he was giving all of those confessions. If he lacked the capacity to consent to treatment, I’d argue he would have also been incapable of making a rational and voluntary confession.