GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #216

[Aussieboy]

It was a very intelligent, engaged jury.

I believe in them 100%

JMO

The Jury made the best decision with the information they were given, but it still doesn't mean they got the best expert opinions to make the outcome they had. I bet this gets appealed.

 

[ClearAhead]

Circumstantial evidence, and there have been miscarriages of justice before. I hope more substantial evidence comes out that the public doesn't know about because I bet people in Delphi are going to wonder if they got the right person.

At no point in time have there been any reports coming from locals that the wrong man has been arrested and charged.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/11/us/delphi-murders-trial-verdict/index.html#:~:text=The%20crowd%20outside%20erupted%20into,according%20to%20CNN%20affiliate%20WISH.

“The crowd outside erupted into applause and cheers outside the courtroom after the guilty verdict was announced, according to WTHR.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

The Jury made the best decision with the information they were given, but it still doesn't mean they got the best expert opinions to make the outcome they had. I bet this gets appealed.

It will be appealed. Most murder convictions are. He has 30 days after sentencing to enter an appeal.

Sentencing will happen, regardless.
Save the date! 12/20/24 @9 am

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

Sentencing Hearing Session: 12/20/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ​

[td]

12/20/2024​

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[shonyakay]

@m00c0w and ors

I am still going down the geofence rabbit hole, because I think newcomer Law Tubers have misrepresented this issue, which will become clear on appeal.

In my opinion, Judge Gull's order following the motion in limine hearing needs to be read in context of Franks III, the state's motion in limine, and the 3 day hearing. On direct appeal, the defence is constrained to this record. Also the order is bland and just restates what the law is anyway.

IMO the record shows the D arguing about 3 phones on a geofence map. And the D knows who these phones belong to. And IMO they called at least one of these witnesses at trial.

So does anyone know of anything else the D raised on the record? Strangely, I never found anything about Geofence that came up at the 3 day hearing, but i could have missed it? And IMO they did not show proof at trial or try to admit it either.

My angle here, is that the geofence is a red herring. Two of the phones IMO, belong to the boyfriend and girlfriend out for a walk, and the girlfriend testified they saw nothing. So this 'geofence' evidence doesn't add anything for the jury. The D knows who the 3 witnesses are and could call them. The D would obviously not be able to claim they were the killers, or that they were at the crime scene.

It is actually strange to me that the D did not call agent Horan at the 3 day hearing, so I can only conclude he wasn't actually useful to them?

Thoughts appreciated!

Judge Gull's Geofence Ruling

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

MOO

Regarding what little I know from the geofencing data.

This is from Motion in Limine Day 3.

Nick M. stated that geofencing is unreliable and the State will not use geofencing for probable causes because it is so inaccurate.

FBI CAST agent Kevin Horan testified that there was data placing other people in the area. There was a device at the cemetery shortly before the murders'.

The State got tower dumps from Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, (and one more that I couldn't decipher).

Horan left a list for the Unified Command Center to follow up on.

Google data is very accurate within 3 to 5 meters, versus geofencing.

Horan's testimony was extremely short.

 

[ClearAhead]

The Jury made the best decision with the information they were given, but it still doesn't mean they got the best expert opinions to make the outcome they had. I bet this gets appealed.

An appeal is NOT based on the jury’s decision, let alone a do-over due to the strength of a State’s case. Generally it’s allowed only on the basis that a legal error made by the judge. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

The Jury made the best decision with the information they were given, but it still doesn't mean they got the best expert opinions to make the outcome they had. I bet this gets appealed.

It’s anything but guaranteed that it will get appealed. Whether the appeal is successful is another discussion. JG gave them 3 days worth of hearings to make their point, and their best witness was absolutely wrecked on the stand by NM. The geofence data was misrepresented, and they didn’t even try to introduce it at trial (which probably forfeits the right to appeal anything related to that particular issue). The strongest point to appeal will be regarding individuals that had alibis and the only evidence connecting them to the crimes is double (or triple) hearsay with no corroborating evidence.

The entire premise is bananas and I still have no idea why the defense went this route. It’s a guaranteed losing strategy.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Regarding what little I know from the geofencing data.

This is from Motion in Limine Day 3.

Nick M. stated that geofencing is unreliable and the State will not use geofencing for probable causes because it is so inaccurate.

FBI CAST agent Kevin Horan testified that there was data placing other people in the area. There was a device at the cemetery shortly before the murders'.

The State got tower dumps from Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, (and one more that I couldn't decipher).

Horan left a list for the Unified Command Center to follow up on.

Google data is very accurate within 3 to 5 meters, versus geofencing.

Horan's testimony was extremely short.

I believe there is some conflating going on with a carrier geofence versus something like a Google geofence. I believe the “geofence” being discussed is going to be a product created by AT&T using their timing advance data. Essentially, it sounds to me like LE either asked AT&T to help or served them with a warrant that mandated them to help, and gave AT&T the coordinates of the crime scene and a general timeframe of the murders. AT&T returned data consisting of phones that could have been in that area based off of their TA data, but the range of uncertainty was so high that they actually could have been hundreds of meters away. These uncertainty values would have been provided by AT&T themselves, so it’s not like NM or someone else just made them up. And I believe what he was trying to get across is the data returned has such high margins of error that it wasn’t really probative. And regardless, it sounds like they identified the people actually using the phones and were able to alibi them or otherwise exclude them. Some of them seem to have been called at trial by the defense to testify about not having seen anything from the bridge.

This is just my speculation based off of the puzzle pieces littered throughout the pre-trial motions and hearings. I have not seen the relevant exhibits, so I don’t actually know what’s there.

Just my opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

We know so little about RA. Just found this video from shortly after his arrest. The prior co-worker of RA says she worked with him in 2012-2014 at the CVS in Peru and estimates he left that store in late 2016 to go work in Delphi. Of course the murders occurred only a few months later in 02/17.

However she claims nothing stands out about him aside from another coworker who mentioned a disturbing “staring” problem.

Starts at about 6:26

 

[tlcya]

Balwin cuddling RA in court like his mommy.

[snipped by tlcya for focus]

moo

well, IF RA genuinely suffers DPD, Baldwin may have become his "person" since his incarceration. RA would need someone to caretake him and KA can't do it while he is locked up. Transference to Baldwin could be a "thing". SO yeah, Baldwin is mommy now. It would make sense. Makes me wonder all the more if RA, given his druthers, would have preferred to plead guilty but his reliance on Baldwin guiding and caretaking him prevented that, and instead based his decision making on based on what AB wanted.

 

[shonyakay]

I believe there is some conflating going on with a carrier geofence versus something like a Google geofence. I believe the “geofence” being discussed is going to be a product created by AT&T using their timing advance data. Essentially, it sounds to me like LE either asked AT&T to help or served them with a warrant that mandated them to help, and gave AT&T the coordinates of the crime scene and a general timeframe of the murders. AT&T returned data consisting of phones that could have been in that area based off of their TA data, but the range of uncertainty was so high that they actually could have been hundreds of meters away. These uncertainty values would have been provided by AT&T themselves, so it’s not like NM or someone else just made them up. And I believe what he was trying to get across is the data returned has such high margins of error that it wasn’t really probative. And regardless, it sounds like they identified the people actually using the phones and were able to alibi them or otherwise exclude them. Some of them seem to have been called at trial by the defense to testify about not having seen anything from the bridge.

This is just my speculation based off of the puzzle pieces littered throughout the pre-trial motions and hearings. I have not seen the relevant exhibits, so I don’t actually know what’s there.

Just my opinion.

In FM3 the defense said these three people had no connection to RA. So yes who they are is known. There is no connection between these people and the crime imo or we certainly would have heard about it.

 

[shonyakay]

well, IF RA genuinely suffers DPD, Baldwin may have become his "person" since his incarceration. RA would need someone to caretake him and KA can't do it while he is locked up. Transference to Baldwin could be a "thing". SO yeah, Baldwin is mommy now. It would make sense. Makes me wonder all the more if RA, given his druthers, would have preferred to plead guilty but his reliance on Baldwin guiding and caretaking him prevented that, and instead based his decision making on based on what AB wanted.

So Baldwin was good cop? Rozzi bad cop?

 

[tlcya]

So Baldwin was good cop? Rozzi bad cop?

possibly. IF RA is suggestible because of DPD and his reliance on others to do his decision making, then his attorneys may have done him an even greater disservice than I initially believed.

 

[thatssoamy]

It blows my mind that people will scream it's a conspiracy and he's being set up, even after hearing the evidence they had and his confessions. It's the same with idaho case, his dna was found on the sheath and still people believe it was planted and are calling for him to be freed.

I'm so glad justice was served. How very brave were abby and libby.

I hope we see justice served in other cases.

 

[INfisherman]

FWIW, IMO the judge made arrangements for RA to be removed from the courthouse immediately after the verdict was entered before the verdict was rendered. Regardless of the verdict, he needed safekeeping and that was her concern.

It showed great foresight.

And created for an orderly verdict.

JMO

Agreeing with your JG reasoning, forsight & wisdom. Respectfully, & not that any of it matters, RA was present when the verdict was read:

As the verdict was read, Allen stared at the jury. He showed no emotion. As Gull spoke to lawyers about scheduling a date for sentencing, Allen turned in his chair and looked at his family. “Are you OK?” he asked his wife three times. Kathy Allen was hunched over in her chair, crying. Allen’s mother, Janis, sat beside her, tears flowing down her cheek. As the court concluded and the bailiff asked those present to stand, Kathy Allen needed assistance rising from her chair.

GUILTY - Carroll County Comet

Today was the day. In a quiet town where folks meet at the local bar for a nightcap and share family stories over biscuits and gravy at the local diner, two girls were brutally murdered. “These things don’t happen around here,” Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland told jurors in his closing...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[Salah11]

We know so little about RA. Just found this video from shortly after his arrest. The prior co-worker of RA says she worked with him in 2012-2014 at the CVS in Peru and estimates he left that store in late 2016 to go work in Delphi. Of course the murders occurred only a few months later in 02/17.

However she claims nothing stands out about him aside from another coworker who mentioned a disturbing “staring” problem.

Starts at about 6:26

You only have to look at all his mug shoots to get that impression. It’s like he is trying to kill the lens with a stare.

IMO

 

[Sarahlou]

It blows my mind that people will scream it's a conspiracy and he's being set up, even after hearing the evidence they had and his confessions. It's the same with idaho case, his dna was found on the sheath and still people believe it was planted and are calling for him to be freed.

I'm so glad justice was served. How very brave were abby and libby.

I hope we see justice served in other cases.

That's the world these days. Social media has a LOT to answer for! It gives conspiracy theorists a huge platform.
Accepting the truth is too 'boring', for want of a better word, they have to make up their own version and obsess over it with like-minded people IMO.

 

[justtrish]

It’s anything but guaranteed that it will get appealed. Whether the appeal is successful is another discussion. JG gave them 3 days worth of hearings to make their point, and their best witness was absolutely wrecked on the stand by NM. The geofence data was misrepresented, and they didn’t even try to introduce it at trial (which probably forfeits the right to appeal anything related to that particular issue). The strongest point to appeal will be regarding individuals that had alibis and the only evidence connecting them to the crimes is double (or triple) hearsay with no corroborating evidence.

The entire premise is bananas and I still have no idea why the defense went this route. It’s a guaranteed losing strategy.

JMO

Something that I find interesting is the fact people claim RA was wrongfully accused because he said he was there.. just the good citizen of Delphi coming forward to help and he was railroaded. Many saying now they wouldn't come forward to help becuase LE could pin crimes on them.. the whole "We are all RA" nonesense.

BUT when LE investigated EF who told others he was there, they didn't railroad him?? They couldn't put them there so they didn't arrest him. Why is it assumed that LE would rather "frame" RA because he said he was there, but they wouldn't go after EF who also said he was there. If we remove conspiracies out of this and just look at it without that lens.. then LE followed up with EF I believe multiple times. He likely did tell his sister he was there.. maybe they passed polygraphs because they are telling the truth that he told them that. It doesn't mean he did the crime and LE couldn't find any evidence that he was there or even in Delphi.

Now imagine LE arrested EF simply for saying he was there and did it. Then they had ZERO to back that up, no DNA, no fingerprints, nothing to even place him in Delphi. What would people be saying about that? He is being railroaded, he has a low IQ and LE are pinning this on him because it's the easy thing to do and so on.

Same with RL.. wouldn't it have been so EASY to pin it on him? He lived there. Same with BW. It seems to be like LE investigated everyone that could have even been a possible POI fully and at no point were they trying to just arrest someone so the case could be closed.

RA was arrested because he said he was there AND they had evidence that could put them there right when he said he was there. They didn't have that with anyone else, even those that seemed like a great suspect. LE didn't jump the gun and arrest whoever could have done it, they ruled people out and waited.

Anyway, this is all just my opinion. It gets old when the narrative is LE is corrupt and this convicted double murderer who says he really wanted to SA innocent children is seen as some hero that is being falsely imprisoned because LE didn't do their job or because LE wants to protect the real killer and so on.

 

[Vaderman]

well, IF RA genuinely suffers DPD, Baldwin may have become his "person" since his incarceration. RA would need someone to caretake him and KA can't do it while he is locked up. Transference to Baldwin could be a "thing". SO yeah, Baldwin is mommy now. It would make sense. Makes me wonder all the more if RA, given his druthers, would have preferred to plead guilty but his reliance on Baldwin guiding and caretaking him prevented that, and instead based his decision making on based on what AB wanted.

If true, I suspect he will suffer greatly now that these lawyers are done with him.

 

[iamshadow21]

You only have to look at all his mug shoots to get that impression. It’s like he is trying to kill the lens with a stare.

IMO

I'd been thinking about the lead up to the video, to the appearance of the gun.

The fact is, if RA was just walking along, minding his own business, looking at stocks or fish, or whatever, it wouldn't have been alarming. It's a straight line to the bridge and back, people would be passing each other or following each other without intent all the time on that trail. And it wouldn't be frightening.

But if a man was following you steadily, staring, staring, staring... especially if you're a woman or girl or femme presenting/passing... You feel fear in that circumstance and you know it's justified because the history of violence against women, girls and femmes by men in isolated locations is written in blood. And when that man persists and follows you across that nightmare of a bridge and there's nowhere to go...

There is a very good reason those girls were terrified in the middle of a beautiful sunny day in a public place long before they ever saw the gun.

MOO

 

[minor4th]

Regarding what little I know from the geofencing data.

This is from Motion in Limine Day 3.

Nick M. stated that geofencing is unreliable and the State will not use geofencing for probable causes because it is so inaccurate.

FBI CAST agent Kevin Horan testified that there was data placing other people in the area. There was a device at the cemetery shortly before the murders'.

The State got tower dumps from Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, (and one more that I couldn't decipher).

Horan left a list for the Unified Command Center to follow up on.

Google data is very accurate within 3 to 5 meters, versus geofencing.

Horan's testimony was extremely short.

Wonder why she excluded it.