GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #216

[shonyakay]

Does anyone remember during jury selection the defense asking potential jurors something along the lines of "how would you feel about a person if we told you they had destroyed potential evidence?"

Am I hallucinating this? Unfortunately all the articles I'm coming up with on jury selection focus on the "unidentified hair" issue and not much else. I'm going to keep looking though.

That info came from Lawyer Lee and it was during jury selection.

Lawyer Lee said the defense team asked potential jurors how they would feel if a defendant destroyed evidence.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I have read through these posts and I read every document in the case and heard the trial. My personal take away from it all is that there will be an appeal. There has to be based on case German V State that was overturned on appeal due to the prosecution making inferences based upon inferences.
In the RA case, they never established a time of death even though they could have and probably did as Robert Ives former prosecutor stated in a prior interview that the girls were found so soon after the murders occurred. And one witness stated that the blood was still congealing at the scene when they were found.
If you cannot establish a time of death then how can you say a person was present at the time of the act? Common sense?
Things that bother me personally:
1) no DNA from RA at scene, per prosecution Expert at trial.
2) no phone data at scene per ISP prosecution expert testimony in trial, & it is NOT true that he destroyed his phone. No expert made this testimony in trial that RA “destroyed” his phone.
3) the only DNA tested before trial belonged to a male ISP trooper, not a male lab tech. ISP Expert testimony answered in trial.
4) no matching RA’s gun to bullet or cartridge, per ISP expert at trial who stated the marks on the unfired bullet, did not match their evidence unfired bullet, so they fired a bullet to see if they could match unfired bullet to the fired cartridge. This is actually laughable except it was presented in trial so at least now that is in the court record when it is appealed. Along with several other weapons seized that they compared the unfired bullet to that they also could not exclude. One weapon not excluded belonged to a prosecution witness.
5) there was an aux cord plugged in and during a break in the trial the states phone “expert” stated he had to “google” if the phone would register if dirt or water got into the jack. He had to google this because not only did he not know this he also never saw any evidence of dirt or water damage to the phone so he never had a reason to look it up.
6) on 5 different occasions RA confessed to the crime. During this time frame it was proved in court that RA was in a state of psychosis and was heavily medicated. That is the only widow of time he “confessed.” Confession to his wife: “maybe I did?” He also admitted to shooting the girls and burying them, killing his whole family, cheating on a cigarette, cheating on his wife, molesting family & friends etc…
7) the prison psychologist said that she believed RA was Feining his psychosis. So she thought medicating him with high doses a person faking? That doesn’t make sense. Especially after she states: “…he is stabilizing now.” Stabilizing from what if he was faking?
8) this correctional facility has other current litigation about staff putting poo on prisoners food, shutting their water off for no reason other than they have no water forcing prisoners to drink from the toilet. Look up the cases.
9) He did not break his tablet, it was taken away and that was after the staff continued to ring it over & over, (from letter submitted by inmate).
10) during this time he was in solitary and was only able to see his wife 2 times.
11) Solitary is a place you put the worst of the worst, in prison. For punishment on top of punishment. Prisoners are persons convicted of a crime. Pretrial detainees are not and are considered innocent.
12) also the psychologist stated she was a member of pro-prosecution Reddit groups talking about her patient. She stated the groups she really liked. It was stated in these Reddit groups that a white van was seen at around the time of the crime nearby the scene of the crime. This was the testimony FBI agent Adam Pohl would have provided if JG had allowed him to testify. Agent AP interviewed BW where BW stated he was coming home that day @3:30pm. BW’s testimony changed on the stand. This should have impeached this witnesses testimony but JG allowed it, without allowing the FBI agents interview evidence that BW had changed his testimony.
13) why did everyone make a big deal about the weather being unseasonably warm that day when it was not? Sat & Sun were warm but Monday was cold. That’s why everyone was seen wearing layers of clothing that day & coats. Look up the weather data for that day.
14) no Amber Alert issued by LE yet one of the witnesses stated she went to police after she saw an Amber alert.
- side note IMO: RA was taken to the prison purely for the chance they could take him off of his regular meds, torture him with everything that gave him anxiety while off of those meds, then heavily drug him to have all in an attempt to have him confess to his psychologist (who is not barred from providing everything he says as long as he is confessing to a murder). Things know to staff that have RA anxiety: being alone, not being with family, etc..
These torture tactics have been trued before in Indiana as well as other states. In Illinois’s one of my American Bar Association journals in (2018 I believe) stated that Chicago police had the practice of giving suspects Ketamine to get them to confess to crimes. This practice was also in use in my own state and I actually do have the body cam footage of this happening in one shocking case.
Things that should have been known at the time of trial:
1) The id of the ISP trooper whose DNA was found at the crime scene. Because the news reported some former ISP troopers are now in jail and at least two very recently due to CSAM charges.
2) the id of the DNA found under the nails and on the genitals of both girls.
3) the ID of the DNA found on a cervical swab.
4) the id of the other strands of hairs not tested out of the 70 strands they had.
5) The ID of the three phones pinging in the area of the crime at the time the prosecution said the crime occurred.
6) test the DNA of a man who stated to a trooper, “if my spit is found on the girls but I can explain it, am I still in trouble?” Especially when he tried to get rid of his blue jacket and told his two sisters what happened that day. Those sisters were polygraphed and both passed.
7) ask the judge why she chose to bar the phone evidence from coming into the court.
8) ask the judge why the name of the man who confessed to the crime to his sisters why anything relating to this man was not allowed into the court record.
9) why did no witness on the stand id RA as the person they saw that day on the bridge? Is it bc they said he was 5’10” and RA is 5’4” ? Or was it bc they identified an a young looking man. One stated she saw an old man with a camera hanging around his neck. ID’d later as DM who said he was there between 2 and 3pm.
So I understand many of you believe this man is guilty and I did too until I read the PCA that did not make any sense then I read the submitted court docs, I started to believe they definitely had the wrong person in fact, I believe there was more than one person involved.
Now ask yourselves, why would you not test all of the DNA now? It is well known that currently that mixed DNA can be extracted to id the single sources. Also now as ISP knows, id can me made from different parts of hairs and root need not be present. So why was all the DNA left at the scene never tested? Why fight to keep the phone info out of the trial? None of it makes sense including the prosecutions theory. Especially when the CPS building had video surveillance along with the building across the road. Why was that not submitted?
Again, IMO when crimes like this happened in the past, LE actually interfered with murder investigations because their drug informant and their drug cases were too valuable to them. See the Joy Higgs case. I think this case is similar.
RIP FBI agent Ferency.
My opinion changed over the last year. My opinion since the PCA was unsealed is that RA is innocent of this crime but that it was convenient to pin it on him. Out of all the men claiming to be there that day, and all the school kids that were there that day, none of them said they ever saw Abby & Libby. One witness said she saw who she thought “resembled” Abby & Libby but did not know for sure.

Can you please provide links to sources for the following statements you presented as fact.
-RA did not break his tablet, it was taken from him.
-the bullet from RA’s gun did not match the cartridge
- video surveillance available from the CPS building and building across from it.

Thank you.

Edited to add: can you please also send source of DNA of a male ISP trooper being tested in connection with the case/crime scene?

 

[susane7]

Can you please provide links to sources for the following statements you presented as fact.
-RA did not break his tablet, it was taken from him.
-the bullet from RA’s gun did not match the cartridge
- video surveillance available from the CPS building and building across from it.

Thank you.

Also - the only DNA tested before trial belonged to a male ISP trooper, not a male lab tech. ISP Expert testimony answered in trial.

I don't think I've ever heard/read that until now.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Also - the only DNA tested before trial belonged to a male ISP trooper, not a male lab tech. ISP Expert testimony answered in trial.

I don't think I've ever heard/read that until now.

Yes agree. I assumed she misspoke but maybe a clarification is needed.
Jmo

 

[TTF14]

The theory that Dr Wala somehow conspired with GH or used Reddit rumours to frame RA is so bizarre to me. You would need direct evidence of such a conspiracy. No appeal court is going to listen to that. It's once again a sign of how D surrogates are intentionally misleading people.

MOO

I don't think that's the theory. Nobody thinks the plan was for Dr. Wala to frame RA, IMO. It is possible Dr. Wala actually thinks he's guilty and unknowingly put ideas in his head (which formed his confessions) from things she heard from Gray Hughes and other social media people she followed. The rumors about the van and BW had been circulating for years, largely on Gray's channel, in my opinion. To me, in my opinion, it's not a leap to believe that an extremely vulnerable man in psychosis was influenced by his trusted doctor's own thoughts on the matter, from what she'd heard and read in the various groups. I recently watched a video (about another topic) and there was a psychologist who said people in psychosis often conflate what they hear/see/read into their own actual memories (take this as my opinion since I'm not linking the video, as it is off topic.)

So, all that to say, I don't think anyone is saying Dr. Wala was trying to frame RA.

As always, this is all just my opinion.

 

[TTF14]

Don’t we all trade our phones in to be reconditioned and resold (aka recycled). I bought a reconditioned (recycled) iPad off of Best Buy. I have always traded my phones in since about 2013, So it’s not odd to me that he didn’t have his phone and I hope no one would assume I “destroyed” my phone I had in 2020 just because I got a new one in 2021. Maybe it’s just me though.

I'm not consistent with what I do with old devices. Sometimes I trade them in/recycle them. Sometimes I keep them in a drawer. Sometimes I throw them away.

Just my experience, and as always, just my opinion.

 

[dotr]

Re post (probably) of article with lots of info regarding DNA in this case, fwiw..

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 9 | DNA and Blood Spatter experts take the stand: Allen's DNA not found at scene

The jury heard testimony from Stacy Bozinovski. She tested the sexual assault kits that came from the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German during their autopsies.

www.wrtv.com

Nov 04, 2024
''DELPHI — Day 9 of the Delphi Murders Trial started with testimony from Stacy Bozinovski, a forensic scientist and DNA analyst. She was responsible for testing the sexual assault kits collected from the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German during their autopsies.''

''State Prosecutor James Luttrell asked, “Did you find DNA of Richard Allen on any tested item?”
“No, I did not,” Bozinovski said.
“Did you find any male profile on any of the items?” Luttrell asked.
“No, I did not,” Bozinovski replied''.

Oct 28, 2024
Stacy Bozinovski, who works in the Indiana State Police Indianapolis Post laboratory as a forensic scientist and DNA analyst, conducted DNA analysis on Abby Williams and Libby German's bodies, as well as their clothes, blood at the crime scene and cartridge recovered from the crime scene.

 

[Warwick7]

I traded in a used phone for the first time this year. Simply, it was the first one it was worth doing for, my previous phones retained zero value and were not worth passing on to anyone so I shoved them in a drawer. In itself, it's not suspicious to me that someone might change a habit like that.

But added to everything else for RA...

M00
This does look bad though:

2013 drawer
2014 drawer
2015 drawer
2016 drawer
2017 missing
2018 drawer
2019 drawer
2020 drawer
2021 drawer

You're right, added to everything else....

 

[Warwick7]

I don't think that's the theory. Nobody thinks the plan was for Dr. Wala to frame RA, IMO. It is possible Dr. Wala actually thinks he's guilty and unknowingly put ideas in his head (which formed his confessions) from things she heard from Gray Hughes and other social media people she followed. The rumors about the van and BW had been circulating for years, largely on Gray's channel, in my opinion. To me, in my opinion, it's not a leap to believe that an extremely vulnerable man in psychosis was influenced by his trusted doctor's own thoughts on the matter, from what she'd heard and read in the various groups. I recently watched a video (about another topic) and there was a psychologist who said people in psychosis often conflate what they hear/see/read into their own actual memories (take this as my opinion since I'm not linking the video, as it is off topic.)

So, all that to say, I don't think anyone is saying Dr. Wala was trying to frame RA.

As always, this is all just my opinion.

He confessed before and after he was arrested.
And the information about the van and its arrival time wasn't released to the media.
And he yelled at other inmates "I'm not crazy, I'm just acting crazy."

 

[TTF14]

He confessed before and after he was arrested.

Please provide a link to this assertion that he confessed before he was arrested.

 

[TTF14]

And the information about the van and its arrival time wasn't released to the media.

I didn't say "the media." Dr. Wala admitted on the stand to following many social media accounts/groups and participating in discussions, both in the groups and with her client. This isn't about mainstream media.

As always, this is just my opinion.

 

[mrjitty]

Does anyone recall what the defence filed (if anything) in response to the States Motion in Limine? I know Judge Gull set it down for hearing, but i don't recall, apart from the 3rd party culpability issues, what the D actually argued in opposition to the states motion.

 

[Dhighsmith]

He confessed before and after he was arrested.
And the information about the van and its arrival time wasn't released to the media.
And he yelled at other inmates "I'm not crazy, I'm just acting crazy."

Confession prior to arrest- are you referencing his initial interview with LE placing himself on the bridge in clothing associated with BG during timeframe of Libby and Abby being abducted (forced down the hill?

 

[TTF14]

Confession prior to arrest- are you referencing his initial interview with LE placing himself on the bridge in clothing associated with BG during timeframe of Libby and Abby being abducted (forced down the hill?

That's not a "confession."

 

[Dhighsmith]

That's not a "confession."

It may be difference in terminology for Warwick thus the reason I referenced “initial interview” and not “confession”.

 

[Warwick7]

Please provide a link to this assertion that he confessed before he was arrested.

It was during trial. And as far as I'm concerned it was a confession.
M00

● Holeman testified that he told Allen that once the search was done, he could file a claim for any damage to his house.
But Allen told him: “It doesn’t matter. It’s over.”

● Holeman then added that a trooper told Allen he was not a bad person. Allen responded to this, asking “What kind of good person would kill two girls?”
That trooper advised Allen he was free to leave. Allen said he was done but continued to talk, Holeman said. According to him, Allen then stated “You have all the evidence, just arrest me.”

● Holeman stated that while troopers were searching his house, he asked Richard Allen if he would like to be taken to his wife. RA said ***“I don’t care, it’s over.”

● Holeman stated that while troopers were searching his house, Richard Allen said “I don’t care, it’s over.” Holeman initially did not know what this meant, so Allen reportedly said the “interview explained it.”

 

[Warwick7]

I don't think that's the theory. Nobody thinks the plan was for Dr. Wala to frame RA, IMO. It is possible Dr. Wala actually thinks he's guilty and unknowingly put ideas in his head (which formed his confessions) from things she heard from Gray Hughes and other social media people she followed. The rumors about the van and BW had been circulating for years, largely on Gray's channel, in my opinion. To me, in my opinion, it's not a leap to believe that an extremely vulnerable man in psychosis was influenced by his trusted doctor's own thoughts on the matter, from what she'd heard and read in the various groups. I recently watched a video (about another topic) and there was a psychologist who said people in psychosis often conflate what they hear/see/read into their own actual memories (take this as my opinion since I'm not linking the video, as it is off topic.)

So, all that to say, I don't think anyone is saying Dr. Wala was trying to frame RA.

As always, this is all just my opinion.

Here is my proof that she didn't put ideas into his head. Because these things she could not have read over the internet, because they werent out there. M00

• he visited his parents that morning
• he left at lunch time and didn't eat with them
• bought a 6 pack, drank 3
• went home and bundled up
• went to the trails
• saw the girls
• followed them across the bridge
• mentioned doing something with his gun, and that’s how he thought the cartridge got there
• told the girls to go down the hill
• crossed the creek
• got scared when he saw a van
• stayed off the trails to leave so he wasn’t seen
• used box cutter and dumped it in the CVS dumpster

 

[StarryStarryNight]

DBM

 

[Warwick7]

Something else that irks me:

Today's Murder Sheet: Kathy Allen told investigators Richard didn't want her to join in the search party for the girls in 2017 and that his depression worsened after the murders.

Murder Sheet

True Crime Podcast · 514 Episodes · Updated Daily

podcasts.apple.com

52:45 mark

 

[Arkay]

So you are saying there is no phone evidence that places him at the trails at the time the crime occurred correct? And you are saying there is no evidence that he destroyed his phone correct? Noted.

There is no phone evidence that he was at the trails at the time of the crime.

The reason this goes SIDEWAYS for RA is because his “alibi,” such as it was, is that he was indeed on the bridge then but was checking his stocks on his phone.

The FACT that his phone was NOT with him destroyed his alibi and shows he was lying.

It is irrelevant to me if he threw away his old phone or not. What is critical is that he lied about his purpose on the bridge.

Finding the phone would have been helpful to LE for further proof, but the absence of his phone being used at the time and place RA stated is one of the many proven lies and feeble excuses he made for that day.

IMO and now fact after the jury verdict.