GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #216

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Ah yes, that wonderful time after a guilty verdict when a select few will come out of the woodwork and attempt to convince others how the prosecution and the jury got it all wrong. It happens after every guilty verdict. They want you to rehash every finer point until your fingers bleed....... And for what? I personally think they are attention seekers. Better to spend your efforts in remembering the two innocents whose lives were unnecessarily cut short than to try to reason with the unreasonable.

Oh, and Richard Allen is the bridge guy and was found guilty and hopefully will spend the remainder of his miserable life in obscurity. The End.

We didn't just come out of the woodwork after he was found guilty. We've been here, attempting to offer our opinions, the whole time.

I, for one, haven't wavered.

As always, this is all just my opinion.
 
I have read through these posts and I read every document in the case and heard the trial. My personal take away from it all is that there will be an appeal. There has to be based on case German V State that was overturned on appeal due to the prosecution making inferences based upon inferences.
In the RA case, they never established a time of death even though they could have and probably did as Robert Ives former prosecutor stated in a prior interview that the girls were found so soon after the murders occurred. And one witness stated that the blood was still congealing at the scene when they were found.
If you cannot establish a time of death then how can you say a person was present at the time of the act? Common sense?
Things that bother me personally:
1) no DNA from RA at scene, per prosecution Expert at trial.
2) no phone data at scene per ISP prosecution expert testimony in trial, & it is NOT true that he destroyed his phone. No expert made this testimony in trial that RA “destroyed” his phone.
3) the only DNA tested before trial belonged to a male ISP trooper, not a male lab tech. ISP Expert testimony answered in trial.
4) no matching RA’s gun to bullet or cartridge, per ISP expert at trial who stated the marks on the unfired bullet, did not match their evidence unfired bullet, so they fired a bullet to see if they could match unfired bullet to the fired cartridge. This is actually laughable except it was presented in trial so at least now that is in the court record when it is appealed. Along with several other weapons seized that they compared the unfired bullet to that they also could not exclude. One weapon not excluded belonged to a prosecution witness.
5) there was an aux cord plugged in and during a break in the trial the states phone “expert” stated he had to “google” if the phone would register if dirt or water got into the jack. He had to google this because not only did he not know this he also never saw any evidence of dirt or water damage to the phone so he never had a reason to look it up.
6) on 5 different occasions RA confessed to the crime. During this time frame it was proved in court that RA was in a state of psychosis and was heavily medicated. That is the only widow of time he “confessed.” Confession to his wife: “maybe I did?” He also admitted to shooting the girls and burying them, killing his whole family, cheating on a cigarette, cheating on his wife, molesting family & friends etc…
7) the prison psychologist said that she believed RA was Feining his psychosis. So she thought medicating him with high doses a person faking? That doesn’t make sense. Especially after she states: “…he is stabilizing now.” Stabilizing from what if he was faking?
8) this correctional facility has other current litigation about staff putting poo on prisoners food, shutting their water off for no reason other than they have no water forcing prisoners to drink from the toilet. Look up the cases.
9) He did not break his tablet, it was taken away and that was after the staff continued to ring it over & over, (from letter submitted by inmate).
10) during this time he was in solitary and was only able to see his wife 2 times.
11) Solitary is a place you put the worst of the worst, in prison. For punishment on top of punishment. Prisoners are persons convicted of a crime. Pretrial detainees are not and are considered innocent.
12) also the psychologist stated she was a member of pro-prosecution Reddit groups talking about her patient. She stated the groups she really liked. It was stated in these Reddit groups that a white van was seen at around the time of the crime nearby the scene of the crime. This was the testimony FBI agent Adam Pohl would have provided if JG had allowed him to testify. Agent AP interviewed BW where BW stated he was coming home that day @3:30pm. BW’s testimony changed on the stand. This should have impeached this witnesses testimony but JG allowed it, without allowing the FBI agents interview evidence that BW had changed his testimony.
13) why did everyone make a big deal about the weather being unseasonably warm that day when it was not? Sat & Sun were warm but Monday was cold. That’s why everyone was seen wearing layers of clothing that day & coats. Look up the weather data for that day.
14) no Amber Alert issued by LE yet one of the witnesses stated she went to police after she saw an Amber alert.
- side note IMO: RA was taken to the prison purely for the chance they could take him off of his regular meds, torture him with everything that gave him anxiety while off of those meds, then heavily drug him to have all in an attempt to have him confess to his psychologist (who is not barred from providing everything he says as long as he is confessing to a murder). Things know to staff that have RA anxiety: being alone, not being with family, etc..
These torture tactics have been trued before in Indiana as well as other states. In Illinois’s one of my American Bar Association journals in (2018 I believe) stated that Chicago police had the practice of giving suspects Ketamine to get them to confess to crimes. This practice was also in use in my own state and I actually do have the body cam footage of this happening in one shocking case.
Things that should have been known at the time of trial:
1) The id of the ISP trooper whose DNA was found at the crime scene. Because the news reported some former ISP troopers are now in jail and at least two very recently due to CSAM charges.
2) the id of the DNA found under the nails and on the genitals of both girls.
3) the ID of the DNA found on a cervical swab.
4) the id of the other strands of hairs not tested out of the 70 strands they had.
5) The ID of the three phones pinging in the area of the crime at the time the prosecution said the crime occurred.
6) test the DNA of a man who stated to a trooper, “if my spit is found on the girls but I can explain it, am I still in trouble?” Especially when he tried to get rid of his blue jacket and told his two sisters what happened that day. Those sisters were polygraphed and both passed.
7) ask the judge why she chose to bar the phone evidence from coming into the court.
8) ask the judge why the name of the man who confessed to the crime to his sisters why anything relating to this man was not allowed into the court record.
9) why did no witness on the stand id RA as the person they saw that day on the bridge? Is it bc they said he was 5’10” and RA is 5’4” ? Or was it bc they identified an a young looking man. One stated she saw an old man with a camera hanging around his neck. ID’d later as DM who said he was there between 2 and 3pm.
So I understand many of you believe this man is guilty and I did too until I read the PCA that did not make any sense then I read the submitted court docs, I started to believe they definitely had the wrong person in fact, I believe there was more than one person involved.
Now ask yourselves, why would you not test all of the DNA now? It is well known that currently that mixed DNA can be extracted to id the single sources. Also now as ISP knows, id can me made from different parts of hairs and root need not be present. So why was all the DNA left at the scene never tested? Why fight to keep the phone info out of the trial? None of it makes sense including the prosecutions theory. Especially when the CPS building had video surveillance along with the building across the road. Why was that not submitted?
Again, IMO when crimes like this happened in the past, LE actually interfered with murder investigations because their drug informant and their drug cases were too valuable to them. See the Joy Higgs case. I think this case is similar.
RIP FBI agent Ferency.
My opinion changed over the last year. My opinion since the PCA was unsealed is that RA is innocent of this crime but that it was convenient to pin it on him. Out of all the men claiming to be there that day, and all the school kids that were there that day, none of them said they ever saw Abby & Libby. One witness said she saw who she thought “resembled” Abby & Libby but did not know for sure.
M00, its sorta a moot point though. The Jury has already made their decision. They pronounced him guilty.
 
SBM

I appreciate that we are all allowed to have our opinions.

IMO I disagree with the veracity of some of what you’ve stated, but I’m just going to reference your final paragraph, because I’m not sure I understand your meaning.

What source is there for “out of all the men claiming to be there that day?”
There were NO other men on the bridge that day in that time frame. Even RA did not claim to see any other men.

I especially do not understand what you’re saying that “none of the school kids ever saw Abby and Libby.”

SURELY you are not saying that ABBY AND LIBBY WERE NOT ON THE BRIDGE THAT DAY? The day Libby photographed them on the bridge? The day Libby recorded the man on the BRIDGE TELLING THEM TO GO DOWN THE HILL? FROM THE BRIDGE THEY WERE CERTAINLY ON and from where they were kidnapped and killed?

Maybe I misconstrued your meaning, so please if you can cast some light on what you mean.
TY
Bam! on that post!!
 
M00, its sorta a moot point though. The Jury has already made their decision. They pronounced him guilty.
Some people who are accused of such horrible crimes really are innocent, but jmo, Richard Allen is not one of them. And moo, his defense really did seem to buy into this notion that if you just keep repeating something over and over and over again on media, people will buy into it. If you infuse enough gusto into it, if you drape it with fantastical storylines, people will gravitate towards it.

Just because someone says they're innocent doesn't make it so. Here's a Ted Bundy quote: “I won't disregard your accusations completely. I will say this much, I have not killed anyone.” Okay. Here's a John Wayne Gacy quote: "I've taken 3 1/2 hours of truth serum – sodium amytal – the maximum amount I could have. It shows I have no knowledge of the crime whatsoever." (There's no evidence out there he was ever administered this drug.) And here's the one I'm always most struck by, Rodney Alcala: “I am absolutely harmless.”

I don't care what the fragile egg says. I don't care, either, what Richard Allen's defense says. I care about what they presented at trial in terms of deflecting evidence. They didn't deflect it. I can see how the jury found him guilty. I'm glad he's going to prison because he's a murderer, jmo.
 
By misdirection, do you mean lies? :cool:
Could you refer me to where the prosecution said they had evidence of him destroying his phone? I looked and couldn’t find it. All I found was the prosecution saying there was missing cell phone data from several people and that they believed it had accidentally been destroyed. That’s where the geofencing would have been helpful to the prosecution, because they could say, “this data shows his cell was right here at this time.” Instead the prosecution fought to leave it out so that the other (confirmed by LE) phones in the same area confirmed to also be there at the exact time the prosecution says the crime occurred would not be mentioned. LE even went so far as to create a map from the geofencing data and tracked the phones. So that is all strange to me. But if you have the link, can you send it to me about him destroying his phone, I would like to read it, thanks.
 
I have read through these posts and I read every document in the case and heard the trial. My personal take away from it all is that there will be an appeal. There has to be based on case German V State that was overturned on appeal due to the prosecution making inferences based upon inferences.
In the RA case, they never established a time of death even though they could have and probably did as Robert Ives former prosecutor stated in a prior interview that the girls were found so soon after the murders occurred. And one witness stated that the blood was still congealing at the scene when they were found.
If you cannot establish a time of death then how can you say a person was present at the time of the act? Common sense?
Things that bother me personally:
1) no DNA from RA at scene, per prosecution Expert at trial.
2) no phone data at scene per ISP prosecution expert testimony in trial, & it is NOT true that he destroyed his phone. No expert made this testimony in trial that RA “destroyed” his phone.
3) the only DNA tested before trial belonged to a male ISP trooper, not a male lab tech. ISP Expert testimony answered in trial.
4) no matching RA’s gun to bullet or cartridge, per ISP expert at trial who stated the marks on the unfired bullet, did not match their evidence unfired bullet, so they fired a bullet to see if they could match unfired bullet to the fired cartridge. This is actually laughable except it was presented in trial so at least now that is in the court record when it is appealed. Along with several other weapons seized that they compared the unfired bullet to that they also could not exclude. One weapon not excluded belonged to a prosecution witness.
5) there was an aux cord plugged in and during a break in the trial the states phone “expert” stated he had to “google” if the phone would register if dirt or water got into the jack. He had to google this because not only did he not know this he also never saw any evidence of dirt or water damage to the phone so he never had a reason to look it up.
6) on 5 different occasions RA confessed to the crime. During this time frame it was proved in court that RA was in a state of psychosis and was heavily medicated. That is the only widow of time he “confessed.” Confession to his wife: “maybe I did?” He also admitted to shooting the girls and burying them, killing his whole family, cheating on a cigarette, cheating on his wife, molesting family & friends etc…
7) the prison psychologist said that she believed RA was Feining his psychosis. So she thought medicating him with high doses a person faking? That doesn’t make sense. Especially after she states: “…he is stabilizing now.” Stabilizing from what if he was faking?
8) this correctional facility has other current litigation about staff putting poo on prisoners food, shutting their water off for no reason other than they have no water forcing prisoners to drink from the toilet. Look up the cases.
9) He did not break his tablet, it was taken away and that was after the staff continued to ring it over & over, (from letter submitted by inmate).
10) during this time he was in solitary and was only able to see his wife 2 times.
11) Solitary is a place you put the worst of the worst, in prison. For punishment on top of punishment. Prisoners are persons convicted of a crime. Pretrial detainees are not and are considered innocent.
12) also the psychologist stated she was a member of pro-prosecution Reddit groups talking about her patient. She stated the groups she really liked. It was stated in these Reddit groups that a white van was seen at around the time of the crime nearby the scene of the crime. This was the testimony FBI agent Adam Pohl would have provided if JG had allowed him to testify. Agent AP interviewed BW where BW stated he was coming home that day @3:30pm. BW’s testimony changed on the stand. This should have impeached this witnesses testimony but JG allowed it, without allowing the FBI agents interview evidence that BW had changed his testimony.
13) why did everyone make a big deal about the weather being unseasonably warm that day when it was not? Sat & Sun were warm but Monday was cold. That’s why everyone was seen wearing layers of clothing that day & coats. Look up the weather data for that day.
14) no Amber Alert issued by LE yet one of the witnesses stated she went to police after she saw an Amber alert.
- side note IMO: RA was taken to the prison purely for the chance they could take him off of his regular meds, torture him with everything that gave him anxiety while off of those meds, then heavily drug him to have all in an attempt to have him confess to his psychologist (who is not barred from providing everything he says as long as he is confessing to a murder). Things know to staff that have RA anxiety: being alone, not being with family, etc..
These torture tactics have been trued before in Indiana as well as other states. In Illinois’s one of my American Bar Association journals in (2018 I believe) stated that Chicago police had the practice of giving suspects Ketamine to get them to confess to crimes. This practice was also in use in my own state and I actually do have the body cam footage of this happening in one shocking case.
Things that should have been known at the time of trial:
1) The id of the ISP trooper whose DNA was found at the crime scene. Because the news reported some former ISP troopers are now in jail and at least two very recently due to CSAM charges.
2) the id of the DNA found under the nails and on the genitals of both girls.
3) the ID of the DNA found on a cervical swab.
4) the id of the other strands of hairs not tested out of the 70 strands they had.
5) The ID of the three phones pinging in the area of the crime at the time the prosecution said the crime occurred.
6) test the DNA of a man who stated to a trooper, “if my spit is found on the girls but I can explain it, am I still in trouble?” Especially when he tried to get rid of his blue jacket and told his two sisters what happened that day. Those sisters were polygraphed and both passed.
7) ask the judge why she chose to bar the phone evidence from coming into the court.
8) ask the judge why the name of the man who confessed to the crime to his sisters why anything relating to this man was not allowed into the court record.
9) why did no witness on the stand id RA as the person they saw that day on the bridge? Is it bc they said he was 5’10” and RA is 5’4” ? Or was it bc they identified an a young looking man. One stated she saw an old man with a camera hanging around his neck. ID’d later as DM who said he was there between 2 and 3pm.
So I understand many of you believe this man is guilty and I did too until I read the PCA that did not make any sense then I read the submitted court docs, I started to believe they definitely had the wrong person in fact, I believe there was more than one person involved.
Now ask yourselves, why would you not test all of the DNA now? It is well known that currently that mixed DNA can be extracted to id the single sources. Also now as ISP knows, id can me made from different parts of hairs and root need not be present. So why was all the DNA left at the scene never tested? Why fight to keep the phone info out of the trial? None of it makes sense including the prosecutions theory. Especially when the CPS building had video surveillance along with the building across the road. Why was that not submitted?
Again, IMO when crimes like this happened in the past, LE actually interfered with murder investigations because their drug informant and their drug cases were too valuable to them. See the Joy Higgs case. I think this case is similar.
RIP FBI agent Ferency.
My opinion changed over the last year. My opinion since the PCA was unsealed is that RA is innocent of this crime but that it was convenient to pin it on him. Out of all the men claiming to be there that day, and all the school kids that were there that day, none of them said they ever saw Abby & Libby. One witness said she saw who she thought “resembled” Abby & Libby but did not know for sure.
And yet, a jury of his peers thoughtfully examined all the evidence, not suppositions, inferences and nonsense, and convicted him on all counts. I think the timeline was as solid as could be with witnesses, video, audio and importantly, the freely given confessions of a killer. RA said himself he was BG...before and after his arrest.
A killer who wanted to confess was believed. Now he's a judged double child murderer and a convict. I doubt appeals will change that since there IS no evidence to support it. AJMO
 
Could you refer me to where the prosecution said they had evidence of him destroying his phone? I looked and couldn’t find it. All I found was the prosecution saying there was missing cell phone data from several people and that they believed it had accidentally been destroyed. That’s where the geofencing would have been helpful to the prosecution, because they could say, “this data shows his cell was right here at this time.” Instead the prosecution fought to leave it out so that the other (confirmed by LE) phones in the same area confirmed to also be there at the exact time the prosecution says the crime occurred would not be mentioned. LE even went so far as to create a map from the geofencing data and tracked the phones. So that is all strange to me. But if you have the link, can you send it to me about him destroying his phone, I would like to read it, thanks.

You have this all tangled up, but the geofence thing has been explained many times here. The defence even called one of the witnesses, who, along with her boyfriend are two of the phones concerned. They already admit to being on the bridge. The defence could have sought to admit cellular evidence for those witnesses but chose not to.

The defence could have sought to admit cellular evidence relating to RAs phone but didn't because there is no evidence for his phone in the tower dumps.

If only the defence had a witness who could have explained why that was?
 
Judge Gull held a special 3 day hearing which was the defences chance to raise evidence about geofence and CAST. AFAIK they failed to do so. They also had the opportunity to cross examine CAST expert SA Horan and failed to raise any of these issues. That tells you the defence did not think any of this was useful.

MOO
 
Could you refer me to where the prosecution said they had evidence of him destroying his phone? I looked and couldn’t find it. All I found was the prosecution saying there was missing cell phone data from several people and that they believed it had accidentally been destroyed. That’s where the geofencing would have been helpful to the prosecution, because they could say, “this data shows his cell was right here at this time.” Instead the prosecution fought to leave it out so that the other (confirmed by LE) phones in the same area confirmed to also be there at the exact time the prosecution says the crime occurred would not be mentioned. LE even went so far as to create a map from the geofencing data and tracked the phones. So that is all strange to me. But if you have the link, can you send it to me about him destroying his phone, I would like to read it, thanks.
Allen it appears had kept all his old phones.
except ...one.
the one from 2017.missing.... poof.... vanished.
what another unfortunate coincidence for this unlucky man.

On November 8, 2022, 23 devices were taken from Richard Allen’s home and data was extracted and analyzed. What exactly the devices were was not clarified.

That same phone — the one he owned in 2017, when the murders occurred — is now missing, despite the fact that Allen kept over 20 other old phones in his house.


absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Quite the contrary isn't it.

imo
 
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Could you refer me to where the prosecution said they had evidence of him destroying his phone? I looked and couldn’t find it. All I found was the prosecution saying there was missing cell phone data from several people and that they believed it had accidentally been destroyed. That’s where the geofencing would have been helpful to the prosecution, because they could say, “this data shows his cell was right here at this time.” Instead the prosecution fought to leave it out so that the other (confirmed by LE) phones in the same area confirmed to also be there at the exact time the prosecution says the crime occurred would not be mentioned. LE even went so far as to create a map from the geofencing data and tracked the phones. So that is all strange to me. But if you have the link, can you send it to me about him destroying his phone, I would like to read it, thanks.
I think people are just assuming he destroyed the phone based on this (and other things):

Source: While Allen said he was looking at his phone’s stock ticker while on the trail, the defense pointed out that no digital data links Allen to the trails.

“That’s what’s interesting. He says he was on the phone but there’s no evidence of that either,” Liggett said on the stand.

When the officers asked to see Allen’s phone in the October interview, he was at first willing, but then Mullin said Allen changed his mind, became agitated and terminated the interview by walking out of the room.

The officers said they drove Allen back to his house and then they went to get a search warrant, returning a few hours later with more officers to search Allen’s home.
================================================

And right, I'd assume he destroyed it as well. Because the more important question to me is why there is no phone showing up on the trail at all for him when he initially made it clear he did have that phone. I don't think LE officers got up and perjured themselves to get this individual thrown into prison, I don't think any physicians either knowingly or inadvertently "suggested" him into prison, either. I think he did a good job on that all on his own. Well, okay, his attorneys helped tremendously, moo.
 
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