Recap of part 2 of the Holeman interview, found here:
Episodes
Definitely worth a listen to both of these episodes as you will be able to extensively hear from the lead investigator in his own words. I found it so interesting to hear his own voice now that the gag order is lifted.
The Odinism theory: Holeman participated in looking into the "Odinist" people early on. The idea that they didn't work hard on this makes Holeman angry.
They had given discovery to the defense of all the work they did so they would have known how much work they put into it before making these accusations. Investigators had been told by experts that if it had been a ritualistic killing, there would be no doubt. Some of the people were were accused of being Odinists had never even been to Delphi, and others that had, had alibis.
It's important to know that some individuals who give tips have gotten caught up in their own lies and want it to be the person they've accused so badly, that they will say or do anything to make it seem like the person they have tipped in is involved.
But evidence and facts don't lie and they never were able to establish probable cause on any of the Odinist people.
Was there anything about what this defense team did that was different than usual? Holeman is used to defense attorneys criticizing their work and "Monday morning quarterbacking." Yes, there were mistakes made but they were able to correct most of them. This team did attack their characters as well and attempt to try to case in the media, which is why the gag order was issued.
"But they found a loophole, in my opinion" in filing the Franks motions and putting false narratives out. He felt that it goes back to an old legal saying "if the law is on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound the table." So a lot of the defense behavior was smokescreen to divert the public from the facts. He feels that they were more unprofessional and underhanded from what he has usually experienced. It's appalling to him to think that he, Holeman, would ever sacrifice his principles and career to make sure Liggett, for example, was elected sheriff.
The prosecution and the investigators didn't want the facts out in the public. Holeman believes in transparency, but he wanted to keep the integrity of the investigation and shield things only the killer would know.
He described the crime scene photos as "disgusting" and believes that the leak was done intentionally. He asks for compassion for the family and for people not to share them. He wishes he could arrest everyone who has shared them on the internet.
The defense was relaying information about the trial to different "internet outlets." Because of this, investigators, family, and community members have gotten hate mail and death threats.
Holeman was sitting unusually close to RA during the trial itself due to the way the courtroom was set up. RA did ask him how he was doing the first day. He made a few comments about his living situation. Holeman gave him water at one point and picked his glasses up for him. He treats him as a human being no matter what he did.
Holeman did observe him eating sticky notes and staring into space at different times. Holeman believes that he does have issues, as anyone who kills two girls would, and he is working through those issues.
He thought the prosecution team did great and were well-prepared. Nick McCleland is the most organized and prepared prosecutor he has ever worked with and put a lot of time and effort in. He was, however, grouchy. They have a great relationship though. NMc did not sleep and was one of the hardest workers he has ever worked with. He knows the law inside and out. Luttrell was calm and collected and came with a great reputation. It was a pleasure working with him as well. Stacy Diener he had not worked with much before, but she was very organized and thorough. Her demeanor works well with everybody including as well as possible with the defense team.
When the verdict came down, he was excited.
He really had no doubt they would get a guilty verdict. Some on the team were concerned the jury would hang, but as he watched the jury he felt they were in tune and asking good questions and he knew the facts were there for them to find him guilty. He was nervous when they deliberated so long but he appreciated they took the time to look at all the information and make the right decision, not the rushed or easy one.
As the jury came in, they were focused on the judge in their body language. When the first verdict was read, it was like a ton of bricks lifted off of them.
He hopes that the families reach a little bit of closure. But he's not sure he would have it, if he was in their shoes.
He's proud of the work of everybody involved in the investigation. Mistakes, errors, did happen. But what he can say is that none of them were made intentionally.
Nobody wanted to misfile or overlook a tip. It took them too long to overcome it, yes, but they did not quit.
He explains the Delphi police station losing interview recordings. Evidently outside the interview room is a key and you flip it one way, a green light turns on, and you are recording. When you are done and leave the room, you flip the key the other way and a red light comes on and the recording stops. He says "if you were unfamiliar with the recording equipment, or if someone else turned it on for you, when you leave you might not know to flip the key and stop the recording." So it would just keep going and eventually record over itself. When they found this mistake they went back and re-interviewed people and memorialized their statements. Technology is great when it works. But none of the mistakes were done for intentional reasons. He describes Steve Mullin as "one of the most honest guy you'd ever meet."
He mentions how hard it is to maintain a good relationship with the mainstream media and the social media when you can't release investigative techniques, names of persons of interest, etc. The thinking behind not releasing how the girls were killed was to prevent false confessions. Some people did confess but the facts they were saying were not true. Cause of death and motive are things he as an investigator never feels comfortable releasing to the media. The things they did release were released because they thought it would help the case.
They collected over 600 male DNA profiles in the course of the investigation.
The case was plagued with rumors from very early on. Early on Holeman tried to debunk the rumors. Most of them were third and fourth hand so they had been twisted. There was a little bit of truth to them but not really. He was trying to debunk them because they were getting false tips based on these.
Personally, he thinks very highly of both families in this case. They are tough people. He can't imagine what they are going through but he hopes that if he was in their shoes, his reaction would be very similar.
MP even wanted to be deputized as a special deputy and help solve the case (which could not be allowed, but was admirable). He thanks them all for trusting and believing in the investigators.
From what he knows of Abby and Libby, he truly believes they would have accomplished great things in life. And he's mad that was taken from them. But they will always be heroes to him. He says that whether Abby hid the phone intentionally or not, she was as much of a hero as Libby for recording him. He praises the bravery in staying together.
They will always hold a special place in his heart. He hopes to hug them if he ever meets them in heaven.
