GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #218

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think that Indiana previously had any official procedures for transferring of persons awaiting trial from county to county for holding (IE: From Carroll County to White County [overcrowding, threat of harm locally etc, etc is allowable]). It was just Sheriff to Sheriff. Transfer from County to State is another beast (which I've already posted).

I did find this very interesting bit this evening on the Indiana Track Bill site regarding proposed ammendments to the law (the law that I posted earlier) governing Inmate Transfers. It was tabled in the Senate on 13 January 2025. IMO, the proposals all seem to align with RA Delphi case as being the nexus for the proposed changes BTW. Give it a read and see if you agree.

"County to County" is now specified and "Mental Health" is excluded as a basis for transfer. Intersting that.

Indiana SB240 //Transfer of high risk persons from county jail

View attachment 561648


Some interesting proposed amendments that, if approved, would come into effect on 1 July 2025:
proposed-bill-jpg.561640


View attachment 561643
MOO
I think the IN DOC does not want the counties' health issues, whether they are mental or physical. Incarcerating pretrial detainees in DOC because of depression, etc, would be a heavy burden on our prisons.

IN. Laurel Mitchell murder case was just decided a few months ago. One of the pretrial detainees was on oxygen plus he suffered a head injury from falling out of his bunk. It took some legal steps to get him incarcerated in Miami Correctional and that caused issues, too. They even had delays in getting hearing aids for him. That case is here on WS. I suspect no one wants a replay of that one.

From the revision; I didn't look up the codes below.
An inmate may not be transferred under this
chapter due to mental illness or another medical condition
requiring the administration of health care services under
IC 11-12-5 and IC 36-2-13.
 
Interesting

One gets the feeling that this was just some kind of administrative process that the defendant can challenge afterwards. The Judge notes he is unrepresented and makes the determination based on a bunch of stuff that may not have been relevant IMO. Be interesting to know how these applications typically work.

My feeling is still that the bigger issue for the defence is the harm and remedy. Rozzi and Baldwin were appointed in November, so it is not as if the opportunity to be heard on this matter was actually lost for more than some days. They just decided not to apply for months.

The matter was then heard and they lost on the merits, including being rebuked by the judge. Especially they decided not to file the psychosis stuff with any medical basis - presumably because they did not want to open that door.

Issues for me therefore are:

Even if Diener was incorrect to approve this without a hearing, or made a clearly incorrect decision, the remedy was to ask for a hearing which they didn't do.

No appeal court is going to relitigate the facts of the safekeeping hearing. And the psychosis stuff wasn't put to the Judge

The defense needs to argue they should get a new trial because Dieners unconstitutional process ultimately caused the defendant to falsely confess ... but it may be a hard road given it was their own decision to wait many months to challenge and not put psychosis on the table?

I do have some sympathy in terms of what happened here, but they may have shot themselves in the foot by never asking for the hearing until after he already confessed.

Maybe the better way of approaching the constitutionality of the confessions is simply on appeal, where this is one part of the matrix.


IANAL, but I would think that is either/or. Some defendants do represent themselves, so it would come from them personally. When represented by a lawyer it still comes "from the defendant" who is represented but it reads as "by and through" the attorney as it was in this case:
View attachment 561610
I don't think that Indiana previously had any official procedures for transferring of persons awaiting trial from county to county for holding (IE: From Carroll County to White County [overcrowding, threat of harm locally etc, etc is allowable]). It was just Sheriff to Sheriff. Transfer from County to State is another beast (which I've already posted).

I did find this very interesting bit this evening on the Indiana Track Bill site regarding proposed ammendments to the law (the law that I posted earlier) governing Inmate Transfers. It was tabled in the Senate on 13 January 2025. IMO, the proposals all seem to align with RA Delphi case as being the nexus for the proposed changes BTW. Give it a read and see if you agree.

"County to County" is now specified and "Mental Health" is excluded as a basis for transfer. Intersting that.

Indiana SB240 //Transfer of high risk persons from county jail

View attachment 561648


Some interesting proposed amendments that, if approved, would come into effect on 1 July 2025:
proposed-bill-jpg.561640


View attachment 561643

Thanks for doing all this research germane to our understanding of the current Indiana statute! This is great info!
 
Interesting

One gets the feeling that this was just some kind of administrative process that the defendant can challenge afterwards. The Judge notes he is unrepresented and makes the determination based on a bunch of stuff that may not have been relevant IMO. Be interesting to know how these applications typically work.

My feeling is still that the bigger issue for the defence is the harm and remedy. Rozzi and Baldwin were appointed in November, so it is not as if the opportunity to be heard on this matter was actually lost for more than some days. They just decided not to apply for months.

The matter was then heard and they lost on the merits, including being rebuked by the judge. Especially they decided not to file the psychosis stuff with any medical basis - presumably because they did not want to open that door.

Issues for me therefore are:

Even if Diener was incorrect to approve this without a hearing, or made a clearly incorrect decision, the remedy was to ask for a hearing which they didn't do.

No appeal court is going to relitigate the facts of the safekeeping hearing. And the psychosis stuff wasn't put to the Judge

The defense needs to argue they should get a new trial because Dieners unconstitutional process ultimately caused the defendant to falsely confess ... but it may be a hard road given it was their own decision to wait many months to challenge and not put psychosis on the table?

I do have some sympathy in terms of what happened here, but they may have shot themselves in the foot by never asking for the hearing until after he already confessed.

Maybe the better way of approaching the constitutionality of the confessions is simply on appeal, where this is one part of the matrix.

IMO, this motion asserts and argues the (un)constitutionality of the safekeeping procedure used by the Diener court Nov 3 2022 as to pre-detainee RA.

The motion (note motion header/claim) doesn't litigate Indiana Statute. However Indiana Statute is referenced in the narrative/background b/c its referenced by Diener in his decision.

The Motion states the US 6th and 14th Amendments, specifically, were violated as to the constitutional right of representation. The motion itself is not concerned w/ IN statute as the 6th and 4th are superior to IN statute. The motion is concerned with the actual procedure in the Diener court and the subsequent Diener decision (unconstitutional).

See the motion below; red bolding asserts:
a) The motion asserts the trial Court (Diener) violated statues are Constitutional - the 6th and the 5th Amendments.
b) The motion asserts the RA safekeeping proceeding was a critical stage.
c) The motion references the Cronic Decision 1984 with regard to prejudice.

and then,

The motion specifically identifies the Constitutional violation committed by the Diener Court:
Allen was prejudiced by being unrepresented at (a critical stage) proceeding.

MOTION:

1. In violation of the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments, Mr. Allen was deprived
of counsel at the safekeeping “proceeding” of November 3, 2022; that
“proceeding” was a critical stage
at which Mr. Allen was entitled to be
represented by counsel; and, under United States v. Cronic, 466 U.S. 648 (1984),
and its progeny, the Court must presume Mr. Allen was prejudiced by being
unrepresented during that proceeding.


Note: Michael Ausbrook and @IUHabeas on x (a habeas specialist) has publicly stated/explained in interviews and on his x acct that this MTCE motion is his work; he argues/believes that a safekeeping hearing for a pre-trial detainee RA was a critical stage ... very much the way a bail hearing is a critical stage ... and required RA's interests to be represented. Ausbrook has explained that this would be a Structural Error. A structural error requires no proof of harm to cause a mistrial/grant a new trial.

IMO, this MTCE 1st motion argues the fast lane to mistrial/new trial for RA - for violation of his US Constitutional rights of representation. (The narrative details are background establishing that RA was denied representation at a safekeeping procedure that also violated a number of other statutory procedural rules including the facts supporting the need for safekeeping.)

I don't think a decision for RA on this motion that finds structural error occurred would affect what's admissible in the new trial. (A structural error breaks the entire process - the remedy is to go back and begin again and do it right this time.)

It's up to RA's Appellate team, but - IMO - this argument could be made in the Appeal ... which we have a bit of a wait for still. (It's also the type of argument that could be made in Habeas Court.)

It will be interesting to see if the State will respond to this motion, ... arguing the constitutionality of RA's safekeeping procedure. And/or arguing that the Diener Court followed IN statute in spite of many statutory errors there that is pointed out in the motion narrative, and arguing the Defense had a remedy (to be heard after safekeeping began) and they used it in April, and their motion was heard and denied. In McLeland's interview w/ the TV station, he explained that another part of the AG's office handles appeals ... but ... this MTCE is part of the trial court. I'm guessing on this particular motion, the AG will assist.

JMHO

*****************************

the motion:
MTCE - Google Drive

the Constitutional Amendments in the motion:
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

JMHO
 
Dieners order you kindly posted above seemed to devote attention to what the general public was doing which would seem to be an irrelevant consideration to me?

But i generally agree that it seems like the custodians can just apply for this setting out a basis and the judge signs off or not and you can argue the toss afterwards.

i guess we’ll find out.
That likely encompasses threats to others & would likely fall under the section 2 portion of the inmate being unable to refuse a transfer & also could be why the inmate wasn’t entitled an attorney.

Speculating.

MOO
 
I think I've seen that. IIRC, it's basically a form of what to file; except it doesn't include any proof of their concerns. "Bloodlust"
They booked RA into CC under an alias so they were anxious from the start. Judge Diener was threatened and his family doxxed on the internet. RA was professing self harm. CC was not equipped and could not guarantee RA's physical or mental well being.

There was public bloodlust for the killer of that small town's daughters Abby & Libby, the victims. No doubt about it IMO.

MOO
 
Ausbrook doesn’t surprise me as he was hinting at the Gibson thing on Mottas podcast where EM unleashed a barrage of conspiracies.

I really hoped RA might get better representation by now.

At least his appeal attorneys are quality.

MOO
FWIW, and MOO,

The MTCE to me reads like it was to get errors and facts new to the record, on the record FOR appeal.

I'd think (and it reads as if) the new appellate team likely had strategic input here. This filing and it's extension of the trial court record dates also buy the appellate team some (needed) extra work time on the clock.

jmho
 
My theory has always been that maybe someone else came up from the southeast side of the bridge after Richard Allen left the Monon High Bridge platform 1. This person abducted and killed the girls. Then this person left the same way they came from the southeast side area(maybe to walk back to Indiana Packers company?).

Recently, I realized there actually is a way to prove or disprove this. In the Motion to Correct Errors, video surveillance captured BW's white van returning on 625 N at 2:44pm.

The motion to correct errors stated the address where the surveillance camera was located: 5998 W. County Road 252 N. It also says the camera was facing west, northwest. This surveillance camera provides a very wide view of vehicles traveling along 625 N. I also think it would capture any people walking along 625 N as well even if they were just figures on the surveillance footage.

When you look at this surveillance camera location on a map and consider it was facing west northwest, what that means is that if there were some other killer who walked out of the southeast area of the Monon High Bridge trail after the murders, this person probably would have been captured on the surveillance camera. But it also does not exclude people like Ron Logan who live in the Monon High Bridge area(although I do not think Ron Logan has anything to do it, but I do not know anymore).

It appears that Richard Allen is probably the murderer, but that is as confident as I am. A jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt so that is what matters.

There is still one part that we may never know the answer to. I would like to know the answer to this question out of curiosity. Theresa Liebert said she saw a man on 625 N near her mailboxes at about 8:30am the day of the murders. She said she saw this man around 8:30 a.m. and said he walked down 625 North in the general direction of the high bridge. Once you see where the surveillance camera was located facing west northwest, wouldn't it be able to determine if she really did see a man walking down 625 N that morning?
 
There is still one part that we may never know the answer to. I would like to know the answer to this question out of curiosity. Theresa Liebert said she saw a man on 625 N near her mailboxes at about 8:30am the day of the murders. She said she saw this man around 8:30 a.m. and said he walked down 625 North in the general direction of the high bridge. Once you see where the surveillance camera was located facing west northwest, wouldn't it be able to determine if she really did see a man walking down 625 N that morning?
TL - the woman who saw a man she didn’t recognize but never saw his face. Who knows, maybe. Again evidence lacking around the bridge area to say definitively yes or no. Since she didn’t see his face, maybe it was a neighbor or a visitor of a neighbor or a landowner to the north/northeast of the security camera.

It might be possible the security camera could have caught someone if they were around but it’s important to understand there are objects between the camera & some of the northernmost homes. Those objects would be larger on camera & possibly obscure a person in the distance. Once 625 passes 252, there is a tree line which begins on both sides of the private road. I cannot tell without a doubt that a person that far away would be seen or not.

Note the defense mentioned no other vehicles were seen on the footage for X amount of time before & after BWs van passed by.

Had there been a person observed, surely the defense would have mentioned it or at least shown the video in court, bringing the owner of said video along to testify. Since that did not occur, we might assume there was not much else compelling to show. I doubt the state would have let this video sit in discovery AND hand it over to defense without thoroughly checking the complete footage of the entire the day of the murders. That would also be very low hanging fruit for the defense to open the SODDI door wide open. RL property as well as BW property allegedly have trail cameras as well. The one(s) nearest the crime scene allegedly had nothing useful - I don’t recall anything specifically mentioned about the Webber property trail cameras.

MOO
 
FWIW, and MOO,

The MTCE to me reads like it was to get errors and facts new to the record, on the record FOR appeal.

I'd think (and it reads as if) the new appellate team likely had strategic input here. This filing and it's extension of the trial court record dates also buy the appellate team some (needed) extra work time on the clock.

jmho
You may be correct with the first statement & I’m 100% certain you’re correct with the second. Pretty standard strategy otherwise the appeal is due by 19 or 20FEB IIRC.

MOO
 
Transcription of Allen’s letter requesting public defender/Nov 2022:

In the cause listed above, I, Richard M. Allen, hereby throw myself at the mercy of the court. I am begging to be provide [sic] with legal assistance in a Public Defender or whatever help is available.

At my initial hearing on Oct. 28, 2022, I asked to find representation for myself.
However, at the time I had no clue how expensive it would be just to talk to someone. I also did not realize what my wife and I’s [sic] immediate financial situation was going to be.

We have both been forced to immediately abandon employment, myself due to incarceration and my wife for her personal safety. She has had to abandon our house for her own safety. What little reserve there is will fail to even maintain the original residence.

Again I throw myself at the mercy of the court. Please provide me whatever assistance you may.

Thank you for your time in this most urgent matter.
-----------------------------------------------

The defendant himself recognizes that he at that point has no counsel; defendant himself recognizes safety concerns. Safekeeping is time-sensitive. Were they supposed to wait until all the i's were dotted and all the t's were crossed? What if something actually happened to "Rick" in that window of time required to do so? Would the same gang making the demands for propriety then be open to accepting culpability? I doubt it. Let's all just be glad the defendant is intact physically so he can serve out his... 130 years. And every one of those 130 years will be constitutional, jmo.
 
I followed this case from the beginning, obsessively. But when Allen was arrested I stopped, because witnesses had described Bridge Guy as being 5'8- 5'10 and even up to 6 feet. Allen was 5'4 and noticeably short and I just couldn't reconcile the two.

 
I followed this case from the beginning, obsessively. But when Allen was arrested I stopped, because witnesses had described Bridge Guy as being 5'8- 5'10 and even up to 6 feet. Allen was 5'4 and noticeably short and I just couldn't reconcile the two.

True but all of them confirmed the man shown in the video was the man they all saw, under oath, in a court of law. IIRC the defense even argued the height differentiation as well as whether RA could have physically controlled 2 girls (armed with a gun) & the jury didn’t bite on either point. Common issue for eyewitnesses to get physical descriptions wrong. The important factor is when asked "is this the man you saw" they all agreed it was.

One other important thing to note, he identified seeing 2 of those witnesses in his statement to LE. So he saw them & they also saw him & their stated timelines for being in the trails matched.

Free to your opinion though, as always, & thanks for sharing it.

MOO
 
I followed this case from the beginning, obsessively. But when Allen was arrested I stopped, because witnesses had described Bridge Guy as being 5'8- 5'10 and even up to 6 feet. Allen was 5'4 and noticeably short and I just couldn't reconcile the two.

Am looking at old descriptions now of BG. Journal & Courier was noting between 5'6" and 5'8" in 2017. I'm also seeing in other sources 5'6" to 5'8, to 5'10". Then 5'7" to 5'9". One of the juvenile witnesses said he was no taller than 5'10", the implication being in my mind that no matter what, the murderer wasn't particularly tall.

It's a good point, though, and jmo, if the defense had used nothing but this point all throughout the trial, I seriously think the overall defense would have been a more successful one than what was ultimately presented. MOO, and not meaning to offend, it was like a cross between a shambles and a farce. By the time the D was finished, I don't see how the jury was going to do anything other than what they did. Don't think it would be appropriate to call the defense "anemic" because they seemed hyperaggressive. More bells and whistles on this point you mention couldn't have done anything but help. I don't think the D viewed such points as "spectacular" enough. Too much preoccupation with YouTubers and not enough preoccupation with their client, jmo.

He's just guilty. Probably no defense could have saved him from his fate. JMO, there's no way this one was going to do so. IMO, he got better than he deserved. Shortly before he was sentenced, Indiana performed its first execution in 15 years, Joseph Corcoran, he was legitimately unsound in terms of his mental health, and seriously so. He took tests showing he was not malingering. He's not going to be serving any 130 years because he is dead. In the meantime, we had Richard Allen rolling his eyes at sentencing.

That's the "fragile egg." As far as I'm concerned, they threw away the key-- and well done.
 
It's a good point, though, and jmo, if the defense had used nothing but this point all throughout the trial, I seriously think the overall defense would have been a more successful one than what was ultimately presented. MOO, and not meaning to offend, it was like a cross between a shambles and a farce. By the time the D was finished, I don't see how the jury was going to do anything other than what they did. Don't think it would be appropriate to call the defense "anemic" because they seemed hyperaggressive. More bells and whistles on this point you mention couldn't have done anything but help. I don't think the D viewed such points as "spectacular" enough. Too much preoccupation with YouTubers and not enough preoccupation with their client, jmo.
The timeline was put together too well from the time RA’s car was observed passing HH camera to DTH, the defense just didn’t have enough with which to counter, IMO. Had any of those eyewitnesses prior to DTH not been on the trails where they were at the times they were & he very well might have gotten away with it IMO

I’m still leaning towards he knew they were coming there, just not tipped off by the obvious inmate who had been catfishing, but rather the elder catfisherman.

MOO
 
True but all of them confirmed the man shown in the video was the man they all saw, under oath, in a court of law. IIRC the defense even argued the height differentiation as well as whether RA could have physically controlled 2 girls (armed with a gun) & the jury didn’t bite on either point. Common issue for eyewitnesses to get physical descriptions wrong. The important factor is when asked "is this the man you saw" they all agreed it was.

One other important thing to note, he identified seeing 2 of those witnesses in his statement to LE. So he saw them & they also saw him & their stated timelines for being in the trails matched.

Free to your opinion though, as always, & thanks for sharing it.

MOO
Thank you. It does clarify things much more.
 
Am looking at old descriptions now of BG. Journal & Courier was noting between 5'6" and 5'8" in 2017. I'm also seeing in other sources 5'6" to 5'8, to 5'10". Then 5'7" to 5'9". One of the juvenile witnesses said he was no taller than 5'10", the implication being in my mind that no matter what, the murderer wasn't particularly tall.

It's a good point, though, and jmo, if the defense had used nothing but this point all throughout the trial, I seriously think the overall defense would have been a more successful one than what was ultimately presented. MOO, and not meaning to offend, it was like a cross between a shambles and a farce. By the time the D was finished, I don't see how the jury was going to do anything other than what they did. Don't think it would be appropriate to call the defense "anemic" because they seemed hyperaggressive. More bells and whistles on this point you mention couldn't have done anything but help. I don't think the D viewed such points as "spectacular" enough. Too much preoccupation with YouTubers and not enough preoccupation with their client, jmo.

He's just guilty. Probably no defense could have saved him from his fate. JMO, there's no way this one was going to do so. IMO, he got better than he deserved. Shortly before he was sentenced, Indiana performed its first execution in 15 years, Joseph Corcoran, he was legitimately unsound in terms of his mental health, and seriously so. He took tests showing he was not malingering. He's not going to be serving any 130 years because he is dead. In the meantime, we had Richard Allen rolling his eyes at sentencing.

That's the "fragile egg." As far as I'm concerned, they threw away the key-- and well done.
Thanks, that clears up a lot.
 
I followed this case from the beginning, obsessively. But when Allen was arrested I stopped, because witnesses had described Bridge Guy as being 5'8- 5'10 and even up to 6 feet. Allen was 5'4 and noticeably short and I just couldn't reconcile the two.

The original wanted poster was correct.
He confirmed he saw the witnesses that saw him.
 
The original wanted poster was correct.
He confirmed he saw the witnesses that saw him.
Sheriff says Richard Allen doesn't match witness descriptions of 'bridge guy'


In addition to Allen calling the tip line right after the murders and being interviewed face to face, they cleared him for 5 years. And one witness described him as boyish and beautiful with a poof of brown hair, in his 20s. And the Sheriff said none of the witness descriptions matched Allen. Very concerning to me.

And the primary sketch bears zero resemblance to Allen:

1000001356.jpg
 
Last edited:
Richard Allen doesn’t read short, imo.

RA has a big head and an aggressive manner in the videos prior to arrest I’ve seen. He looks and acts like a grump making him seem more substantial, I guess is the word, imo. He's not petite, imo.

In this video at 1:12 he doesn’t stand out as noticeably short, imo.

1738591773746.png



At 1:10 here is Ricky next to Mr. tall and handsome officer that shows his big head



1738591811998.png






all imo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
126
Guests online
625
Total visitors
751

Forum statistics

Threads
625,722
Messages
18,508,627
Members
240,836
Latest member
Freud
Back
Top