GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #220

[INfisherman]

If you were looking at this map as North being up top, East being on Libby’s side, South being below them, and West being on Abby's side - the end of High Bridge, Weber's private driveway, and his house would be South East of the girls.

Unless I have my brain scrambled, I think you may have E & W flipped in your description.

As the image sits, with N down, W goes RIGHT, E goes LEFT. When the image gets rotated/flipped so N is up, E will then go RIGHT & W LEFT (as in all N-up maps). The large branch is obscuring the W/NW side of LG, with AW laying E of LG or am I mistaken?

 

[Peppery]

Initially I thought the sticks were to help conceal their bodies. But wouldn’t it have been easier and faster to kick some leaves and/or forest floor debris over them and nearly cover them? I think only RA knows why he placed the sticks the way he did and it will never make sense to us. It wasn’t Odinists, it wasn’t witches, it was one sick [man] who will pay for the next 130 years.

 

[shonyakay]

Unless I have my brain scrambled, I think you may have E & W flipped in your description.

As the image sits, with N down, W goes RIGHT, E goes LEFT. When the image gets rotated/flipped so N is up, E will then go RIGHT & W LEFT (as in all N-up maps). The large branch is obscuring the W/NW side of LG, with AW laying E of LG or am I mistaken?

Every picture and video clip I have seen - their bodies were found where I described. I admit I don't understand the North symbol in this graphic though.

Here is Lauren Matthias showing the area where the girls were found.

 

[shonyakay]

Unless I have my brain scrambled, I think you may have E & W flipped in your description.

As the image sits, with N down, W goes RIGHT, E goes LEFT. When the image gets rotated/flipped so N is up, E will then go RIGHT & W LEFT (as in all N-up maps). The large branch is obscuring the W/NW side of LG, with AW laying E of LG or am I mistaken?

Here is another one from Lauren at the crime scene.

 

[INfisherman]

Every picture and video clip I have seen - their bodies were found where I described. I admit I don't understand the North symbol in this graphic though.

Here is Lauren Matthias showing the area where the girls were found.

I’m not questioning where they were found, I’m mainly interested in figuring out which direction the bridge troll was attempting to obscure with the largest limb over LG.

I’m just always used to using N as the starting point & E should be 90° CW (clockwise) & W 90° CCW (counterclockwise) from N, regardless of the orientation of N. If using that method, then LG lays W of AW & the large branch on LG is obscuring the W/NW side of the private property.

 

[INfisherman]

@shonyakay,

Maybe this can help point out what I’m getting at.

CS image as posted, with me adding the compass directions. Once the image is rotated to north-up, east goes to the right as it should on any north-up map.

Original:


Rotated to N-up (letters upside down but directions are the same).

 

[shonyakay]

@shonyakay,

Maybe this can help point out what I’m getting at.

CS image as posted, with me adding the compass directions. Once the image is rotated to north-up, east goes to the right as it should on any north-up map.

Original:
View attachment 629949

Rotated to N-up (letters upside down but directions are the same).View attachment 629950

The large limb from the perspective of the bottom image you rotated would be to the left of the girls and would be obscuring the girls from Weber's elevated driveway North West of the girls.

Based on the bottom rotated image the cemetery would be South of the girls and the creek would be North of the them. Is this your opinion as well?

I described the same directions just from the perspective of North being above the girls heads, East being to the right of the girls, South to the girls feet, and West to left of the girls with the girls being obscured with the large limb to the left of them and Weber's drive being South East of them.

Thank you for rotating the image as I now see LE's perspective of the direction key.

 

[INfisherman]

The large limb from the perspective of the bottom image you rotated would be to the left of the girls and would be obscuring the girls from Weber's elevated driveway North West of the girls.

Based on the bottom rotated image the cemetery would be South of the girls and the creek would be North of the them. Is this your opinion as well?

I described the same directions just from the perspective of North being above the girls heads, East being to the right of the girls, South to the girls feet, and West to left of the girls with the girls being obscured with the large limb to the left of them and Weber's drive being South East of them.

Thank you for rotating the image as I now see LE's perspective of the direction key.

The girls were found N of the creek but S of the cemetery. They were NW from BW’s property. 300N was where SC saw BG & 625W is the private gravel road which goes beneath the SE end of MHB & leads back to BW’s. The image below was taken with no rotation of the map, so N is up, E is right, S is down, W is left. 300N runs due E-W between RL’s property & the Mears’ entrance, which is off screen to the left.

If the diagram of the CS is correct regarding which direction is N, you can take that rotated CS image & lay it on the satellite image above & that’s the orientation of the CS. If the N indicator is wrong, then the unrotated version would apply. Only the scale (size) of the diagram would be off. Note, the CS area I marked on the satellite image is much larger than the actual CS. The marking is just an indication of the general area where they were found. It’s possible they were a bit further up or downstream, as I’m going from memory. The creek likely flows from right to left, where it eventually goes to the SW side of Delphi & empties into the Wabash River.

Also, make note that in the first video you posted of HTC, Lauren is across the creek, near the CS & was able to both hear & see a vehicle drive by along 625W as she was speaking. She mentions it. To me, that indicates there is a possibility the troll may have already been across the creek when BW came through.

 

[shonyakay]

The girls were found N of the creek but S of the cemetery. They were NW from BW’s property. 300N was where SC saw BG & 625W is the private gravel road which goes beneath the SE end of MHB & leads back to BW’s. The image below was taken with no rotation of the map, so N is up, E is right, S is down, W is left. 300N runs due E-W between RL’s property & the Mears’ entrance, which is off screen to the left.View attachment 629983

If the diagram of the CS is correct regarding which direction is N, you can take that rotated CS image & lay it on the satellite image above & that’s the orientation of the CS. If the N indicator is wrong, then the unrotated version would apply. Only the scale (size) of the diagram would be off. Note, the CS area I marked on the satellite image is much larger than the actual CS. The marking is just an indication of the general area where they were found. It’s possible they were a bit further up or downstream, as I’m going from memory. The creek likely flows from right to left, where it eventually goes to the SW side of Delphi & empties into the Wabash River.

Also, make note that in the first video you posted of HTC, Lauren is across the creek, near the CS & was able to both hear & see a vehicle drive by along 625W as she was speaking. She mentions it. To me, that indicates there is a possibility the troll may have already been across the creek when BW came through.

I agree with everything on your map except the area where SC first saw BG. It was further West down 300 N.

If we place the rotated crime scene image directly on the map within the crime scene area, wouldn't that make Abby and Libby's right sides viewable from Weber's drive? If so, the concealment would still be to the left sides of their bodies facing the ravine and for what reason?

You are correct that the creek runs East to West this was testified to at trial and their clothing items and a shoe were found in the creek caught up in floating tree debris just South West of the crime scene..

 

[Justice101]

The graphic in this video is not accurate. There were no sticks on top of Abby’s right side at all. Also the right side of Abby’s body is not leaning that far at that angle. She is more upright then that graphic displays. Please only go by LE's crime scene map (below). LE's crime scene map (which was an exhibit at RA's trial) matches the crime scene pictures perfectly.

View attachment 629833

So Libby had blood on her hands? I didn't remember that detail. Was that defensive wounds or just instinctively grabbing for her neck?

Also, I see the blood stain on the other side of the smaller tree on the left. And he put sticks over the blood? And what is the exposed dirt area? Probably one of the girls struggling and gouging it out with their foot or where RA dragged their body?

This is just horrible.

 

[shonyakay]

So Libby had blood on her hands? I didn't remember that detail. Was that defensive wounds or just instinctively grabbing for her neck?

Also, I see the blood stain on the other side of the smaller tree on the left. And he put sticks over the blood? And what is the exposed dirt area? Probably one of the girls struggling and gouging it out with their foot or where RA dragged their body?

This is just horrible.

More than likely it was her grabbing at her throat. There was no defensive wounds on either girl. Abby had no blood on her hands which were down inside the sleeves of Libby's Delphi swimming hoodie. The blood spatter expert mentioned that was something he hadn't seen before because as an instinct you would grab at your neck. My belief is RA was on top of Abby right after he cut her. And now based on further blood evidence I am thinking she may have fell face down on the ground after being cut. Blood on Abby's and Libby's shoes at the crime scene makes me believe this to be a possibility.

I believe RA led the girls behind that huge double trunked tree for cover and the attack first happened by the "F" tree - that small tree to the left.

The exposed dirt area concerns me. Was the dirt disturbed in that area to cover up possible Biological material? Makes me nauseous to think about.

 

[shonyakay]

So Libby had blood on her hands? I didn't remember that detail. Was that defensive wounds or just instinctively grabbing for her neck?

Also, I see the blood stain on the other side of the smaller tree on the left. And he put sticks over the blood? And what is the exposed dirt area? Probably one of the girls struggling and gouging it out with their foot or where RA dragged their body?

This is just horrible.

The big blood pool at the base of the girls is Libby's and it is believed she was attacked again here. Libby had at least three cut wounds to her neck (Possibly five) as opposed to one cut to Abby's neck. This is where Libby sat and succumbed or at least went unconscious. She was then dragged about 7 to 8 feet next to Abby behind the big tree.

 

[INfisherman]

I agree with everything on your map except the area where SC first saw BG. It was further West down 300 N.

If we place the rotated crime scene image directly on the map within the crime scene area, wouldn't that make Abby and Libby's right sides viewable from Weber's drive? If so, the concealment would still be to the left sides of their bodies facing the ravine and for what reason?

You are correct that the creek runs East to West this was testified to at trial and their clothing items and a shoe were found in the creek caught up in floating tree debris just South West of the crime scene..

SC’s location is approximate. I believe we only know she’d passed Mears but had yet to reach the cemetery.

Yes, the main large limb used for concealment would be facing mostly W but a bit NW. I don’t know for sure what can be seen from BW’s drive, if no one is standing at the CS. This is the reason for my questions - if they were at the bottom of the depression or on the upsweep on the SE side of the depression, it’s possible they couldn’t be seen when prone on the ground. The reason might be the troll was more concerned with a walker coming from the W/NW. The sandbar at creek level would be the lowest vantage point & the N side of the creek bank would have a steep climb prior to being up on flat ground (from erosion/flooding). Not many people would likely be down around the creek or crossing it in Feb. Who really knows why he did what he did at the CS? Much of it was haphazard & he’d likely drank more than he claimed. He did like to minimize his actions at every turn.

This is all assuming the diagram is correctly showing the location of N.

MOO

ETA - last 3 sentences, 2nd paragraph.

 

[Boxer]

The girls were found N of the creek but S of the cemetery. They were NW from BW’s property. 300N was where SC saw BG & 625W is the private gravel road which goes beneath the SE end of MHB & leads back to BW’s. The image below was taken with no rotation of the map, so N is up, E is right, S is down, W is left. 300N runs due E-W between RL’s property & the Mears’ entrance, which is off screen to the left.View attachment 629983

If the diagram of the CS is correct regarding which direction is N, you can take that rotated CS image & lay it on the satellite image above & that’s the orientation of the CS. If the N indicator is wrong, then the unrotated version would apply. Only the scale (size) of the diagram would be off. Note, the CS area I marked on the satellite image is much larger than the actual CS. The marking is just an indication of the general area where they were found. It’s possible they were a bit further up or downstream, as I’m going from memory. The creek likely flows from right to left, where it eventually goes to the SW side of Delphi & empties into the Wabash River.

Also, make note that in the first video you posted of HTC, Lauren is across the creek, near the CS & was able to both hear & see a vehicle drive by along 625W as she was speaking. She mentions it. To me, that indicates there is a possibility the troll may have already been across the creek when BW came through.

Thats what I think, he was across when BW came by. Its a party spot, MOO he was going there with them.

 

[FromGermany1]

Thats what I think, he was across when BW came by. Its a party spot, MOO he was going there with them.

How did "party spot guests" usually arrive at that spot? I think, they didn't cross the MHB and wandered back through the creek. RL would have known of it, but maybe he suspected, there would be no party in winter, on a February day at noon? - There are always more questions instead of less.

Btw: Does someone meanwhile know, why the property on BW's side was largely cordoned off by police in 2017, although we don't know, what may have happened on this side of the creek? Or am I the only one, who is missing this info?

 

[shonyakay]

SC’s location is approximate. I believe we only know she’d passed Mears but had yet to reach the cemetery.

Yes, the main large limb used for concealment would be facing mostly W but a bit NW. I don’t know for sure what can be seen from BW’s drive, if no one is standing at the CS. This is the reason for my questions - if they were at the bottom of the depression or on the upsweep on the SE side of the depression, it’s possible they couldn’t be seen when prone on the ground. The reason might be the troll was more concerned with a walker coming from the W/NW. The sandbar at creek level would be the lowest vantage point & the N side of the creek bank would have a steep climb prior to being up on flat ground (from erosion/flooding). Not many people would likely be down around the creek or crossing it in Feb. Who really knows why he did what he did at the CS? Much of it was haphazard & he’d likely drank more than he claimed. He did like to minimize his actions at every turn.

This is all assuming the diagram is correctly showing the location of N.

MOO

ETA - last 3 sentences, 2nd paragraph.

There is a trial exhibit of where it is marked where SC saw muddy, bloody man. Once I locate it I will post it.

LE's direction key on the crime scene map may be where it is because the girls were discovered from the cemetery side and that is where LE was working from. Just a thought.

 

[Justice101]

Reflecting back on this case, a case where many of us were here following from the beginning when LE announced that it was homicide, I am just so thankful that the case eventually got solved and the person responsible is behind bars forever. I accidently saw one of the CS photos and I just wanted to cry at the sadness for the family. It also angers me to no end for the evil person that Richard Allen is.

Thank goodness for Kathy Shank, and her poking around in the "cleared" files to find RA's self-admission of being on the trails about that time.. that eventually solved the case.

She is a hero to me. Someone naturally inquisitive, who didn't just assume that LE knew all about RA and had cleared him.. but that someone needed to look into him deeper. A simple filing error in the midst of thousands of tips and the perpetrator was right in front of them the whole time. Fresh eyes looking at the files. We owe her a great thank you

The conservation officer who did not follow up with the broader investigative team to see details on why his lead/tip was not considered even though he was on the trails... is a lesson in not assuming that other people are doing their job right. Although this is hind site, but I'll bet the CO saw the still shots of BG along with the video and said, "Wow, that sure looks like the guy I talked to"...but did not apparently follow up. This is partially on him.

 

[Boxer]

Man, the line "And since the suspect may be a local, he could have already been interviewed when investigators canvassed those in town" is chilling in hindsight

Add to this that the 2019 presser where Carter said the perpetrator was nearby and "could even be in the room."
The 2019 PC was held in the closest venue possible to the Save-a-Lot, where Dulin met Richard Allen, the conference hall is just across a field.
I have always wondered if they actually had Dulin telling them he had a vague memory that he talked with some short man in the Save -a-Lot parking lot who said he was on the trail at the time - but that he had interviewed many people and could not dredge up the details.

 

[INfisherman]

There is a trial exhibit of where it is marked where SC saw muddy, bloody man. Once I locate it I will post it.

LE's direction key on the crime scene map may be where it is because the girls were discovered from the cemetery side and that is where LE was working from. Just a thought.

Please don’t put too much effort into it. We know it was between the Mears entrance & the cemetery, which is at most ~0.36 miles. I used that location based on news reports during her testimony. It was reported that she said it was near the cemetery but I don’t see a need to split hairs over the precise location - it was likely somewhere along that straightaway, as I just don’t see the troll staying in the road anywhere near Mears with DG shouting for the girls & other people gathering in that area.

"Carbaugh described herself as “local as you can get” and said she went to the trail daily to walk her dogs. As a teenager, she used to walk on the Monon High Bridge—although she stopped when she was an adult.

She testified that she saw “Bridge Guy” walking down County Road 300 North by the cemetery around 4 p.m. on Feb. 13 while she was driving by. He was hunched over and plodding along with his hands in his pockets."

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-combative-testimony-from-another-bridge-guy-witness/

 

[INfisherman]

Thats what I think, he was across when BW came by. Its a party spot, MOO he was going there with them.

I tend to believe he’d already forced them across the creek by that time as well.

I don’t know about gathering spots off of the main trails but I do know the sandbar on the Weber’s side of the creek is often visited by trespassers who can get there from either the private gravel road or the SE end of MHB & taking a similar path as likely did the troll. I believe there is a tree where visitors have thrown shoes tied together over limbs in the tree. Sandbars & shallow areas often attract people, as I’ve either observed evidence of or ran into people while wade fishing a couple of local rivers with only private property access nearby.

MOO