Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #199

[MiniMoo]

I am glad you asked!! The murder sheet had a number of interviews with experts on toolmark analysis: re unspend bullets.

My terribly not-nuanced summary: When the bullet is cycled through a gun (lets say a sig sauer?) a little metal thingy presses on the bullet leaving behind a mark that COULD be unique enough to be matched with other bullets ejected from the exact same gun. Is it open to a battle of experts? Yes, I believe so.

Obviously I am not an expert so this is all MOO and interpretation. Please have a listen to the experts below:

A Conversation About Ballistics from a Forensic Analyst's Perspective | Murder Sheet Podcast

www.everand.com

The Delphi Murders: Conversations with a Firearms Expert and a Professional Investigator

In this episode of the Murder Sheet, we spoke to a firearms expert about the bullet evidence against Richard Allen. We also spoke to a professional investigator with years of experience working with law enforcement and defense attorneys. Please send tips and questions to [email protected].

art19.com

The Delphi Murders: Conversations with a Firearms Expert and a Forensic Examiner

The Murder Sheet interviewed a forensic examiner and another firearms expert about the publicly-released information in the case of Richard Allen. Allen stands accused of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. One of the significant pieces of evidence in the probable cause affidavit...

art19.com

Going Ballistic with Radley Balko

A Chicago judge recently became the first judge in the country to bar the use of ballistics matching testimony in a criminal trial. What inspired him to make that ruling? What does it mean for other cases-- like Delphi-- where ballistics testimony seems to play a key role? To get some answers...

art19.com

EBM: Editing to add I hadn't seen some of the other excellent responses, @MassGuy response was an excellent summary of my understanding.

I thought I had multi-quoted, multiquoted or multi quoted - one is bound to be correct!

Awesome. Thanks for that!

That unspent bullet found at the crime scene in Delphi is what the State seems to be counting on in this trial.

I am now wondering how many other cases involving unspent bullets have had success in convicting someone in a trial (USA).

JMO JMT

 

[Warwick7]

There are a few different ways of doing this.

One is that a fired bullet is recovered, and compared to one fired in a ballistics lab from the gun they believe it to be (when you see them shooting into water). The markings on the bullets are compared.

When you don't have a bullet (the tip of the round that actually travels through the barrel), the next move is to compare bullet casings (the metal things you see laying on the ground after a shooting). Those casings have marks from both the firing pin (which strikes the primer and creates the explosion that launches the bullet), and the extractor, which ejects the bullet casing out of the gun.

In this case, the round wasn't fired, so all they can compare is the marks from the extractor. When a magazine is inserted into an empty gun (people also incorrectly call this a clip), you have to rack the slide (coc k the gun) to put a round in the chamber. So presumably, the killer had already done that, forgot, and then did it again to scare the girls into complying. This would have ejected an unspent round onto the ground.

Here's more:

"When the slide comes back like this, a round is extracted from the chamber with what's called an extractor, which is like a little claw that actually hooks on to this protruding rear edge of the cartridge, pulls it out, and then the injectors sort of kicks it out of the ejection port," said Guy Relford, Indianapolis gun expert and defense attorney. "So that claw, that extractor, grabs onto that little edge on the back of the cartridge and can leave a little mark on the shell casing, even on an unspent round through the process of extracting the unspent round out of the gun."

Gun expert and defense attorney break down new details in Delphi murder case

One of the largest areas of focus in the Delphi investigation is a single unspent bullet found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.

www.wrtv.com

View attachment 538630

Thank you @MassGuy !!!!

 

[SouthEnd]

I thought I had multi-quoted, multiquoted or multi quoted - one is bound to be correct!

Awesome. Thanks for that!

That unspent bullet found at the crime scene in Delphi is what the State seems to be counting on in this trial.

I am now wondering how many other cases involving unspent bullets have had success in convicting someone in a trial (USA).

JMO JMT

Not many, actually. I think that's discussed in one of the episodes, there was one case brought up for Indiana.

All MOO

 

[MassGuy]

I thought I had multi-quoted, multi-quoted or multi quoted.

Awesome. Thanks for that!

That unspent bullet found at the crime scene in Delphi is what the State seems to be counting on in this trial.

I am now wondering how many other cases involving unspent bullets have had success in convicting someone in a trial (USA).

JMO JMT

I'm sure it's happened, but it has to be incredibly rare. I haven't come across a case where an unspent round has played a role.

Bullets are found in bodies and can be compared to a suspected weapon. Casings are found at crime scenes and can be similarly compared to a suspected weapon. There's just no reason to leave an unspent round at a crime scene, and even if you do, you've likely left casings from fired rounds behind which provides even more evidence than an unspent round.

This is an incredibly unusual scenario where no rounds were fired, but an unspent one was left behind for comparison. The reason for that is clear though (intimidation to force compliance).

ETA: Referring to murder cases specifically.

 

[TTF14]

Awesome. Thanks for that!

That unspent bullet found at the crime scene in Delphi is what the State seems to be counting on in this trial.

I am now wondering how many other cases involving unspent bullets have had success in convicting someone in a trial (USA).

JMO JMT

I'm very interested in when, and by whom, the unspent bullet was found.

As always, JMO.

 

[MiniMoo]

There are a few different ways of doing this.

One is that a fired bullet is recovered, and compared to one fired in a ballistics lab from the gun they believe it to be (when you see them shooting into water). The markings on the bullets are compared.

When you don't have a bullet (the tip of the round that actually travels through the barrel), the next move is to compare bullet casings (the metal things you see laying on the ground after a shooting). Those casings have marks from both the firing pin (which strikes the primer and creates the explosion that launches the bullet), and the extractor, which ejects the bullet casing out of the gun.

In this case, the round wasn't fired, so all they can compare is the marks from the extractor. When a magazine is inserted into an empty gun (people also incorrectly call this a clip), you have to rack the slide (coc k the gun) to put a round in the chamber. So presumably, the killer had already done that, forgot, and then did it again to scare the girls into complying. This would have ejected an unspent round onto the ground.

Here's more:

"When the slide comes back like this, a round is extracted from the chamber with what's called an extractor, which is like a little claw that actually hooks on to this protruding rear edge of the cartridge, pulls it out, and then the injectors sort of kicks it out of the ejection port," said Guy Relford, Indianapolis gun expert and defense attorney. "So that claw, that extractor, grabs onto that little edge on the back of the cartridge and can leave a little mark on the shell casing, even on an unspent round through the process of extracting the unspent round out of the gun."

Gun expert and defense attorney break down new details in Delphi murder case

One of the largest areas of focus in the Delphi investigation is a single unspent bullet found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.

www.wrtv.com

View attachment 538630

That is a very interesting breakdown and that gun expert and defense attorney, Guy Relford, with:

"So that claw, that extractor, grabs onto that little edge on the back of the cartridge and can leave a little mark on the shell casing, even on an unspent round through the process of extracting the unspent round out of the gun."

Insightful!

 

[Seattle1]

There was a gag order in place while police were investigating up to the point when RA was arrested? I've never heard this before, has anyone? Is there a link that supports this? My understanding was there was no gag order until RA was arrested???

I'm asking if LE told the general public that they had DNA before RA was arrested - if they did so and don't have DNA, why would they have lied? My question stemmed from someone upthread who asked if LE had said previously that they had DNA - which this article supports: https://fox59.com/indiana-news/poli...ew-sheds-further-light-on-the-delphi-murders/

WHy say they have it if they don't, except or unless to scare a guilty party??? MOOOO

Huh?

We learned about the DNA evidence and it being rapid tested on 2/23/2017 -- a week after the murders.

Is this true -- no RA DNA? Who did the DNA belong to? I recall from long ago that investigators claimed they had DNA!

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/state-defense-deliver-opening-statements-in-delphi-murders-trial/

10/18/24

Baldwin walked the jury through the defense team’s version: that Bridge Guy and perhaps others accosted the girls at the south end of the bridge, loaded them into a vehicle and drove away, only to return twelve hours later to kill the victims near Deer Creek.

The attorney said fruitless searches of the area the night before, activity on Libby’s cell phone twelve hours after investigators believe the girls were dead and the complexity of the crime showed the murders would be beyond the ability of one man of modest stature to carry out with two different knives.

He said there was no DNA, social media or forensic evidence linking Allen to the girls’ deaths.

ETA: From MSM dated 2/23/2017

Carroll County sheriff discusses Delphi murder investigation, says DNA evidence ‘fast-tracked’

DELPHI, Ind. – The investigation into the murders of two Delphi teenagers is a complicated one, and Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said investigators are doing everything they can to solve th…

fox59.com

Leazenby did say investigators have asked for DNA evidence to be “fast-tracked.”

“I can’t go into the specifics because of the ongoing (investigation), that’s being expedited as best as it can be done,” he said.

 

[SouthEnd]

I'm sure it's happened, but it has to be incredibly rare. I haven't come across a case where an unspent round has played a role.

Bullets are found in bodies and can be compared to a suspected weapon. Casings are found at crime scenes and can be similarly compared to a suspected weapon. There's just no reason to leave an unspent round at a crime scene, and even if you do, you've likely left casings from fired rounds behind which provides even more evidence than an unspent round.

This is an incredibly unusual scenario where no rounds were fired, but an unspent one was left behind for comparison. The reason for that is clear though (intimidation to force compliance).

Exactly. That's why context matters so much and how the evidence is presented.

This is only the second time in the state of Indiana that an unspent casing is used as evidence in a trial! (gasp) vs A round was ejected as part of the intimidation/kidnapping. We have the technology to compare the toolmarks and according to science, this case is lets say a 95% match to the defendant's gun, meaning out of x number of guns in the state, only y number could have ejected this bullet.

All MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

I'm very interested in when, and by whom, the unspent bullet was found.

As always, JMO.

This I'm sure will be made clear throughout the trial. No way around it.

 

[MassGuy]

Exactly. That's why context matters so much and how the evidence is presented.

This is only the second time in the state of Indiana that an unspent casing is used as evidence in a trial! (gasp) vs A round was ejected as part of the intimidation/kidnapping. We have the technology to compare the toolmarks and according to science, this case is lets say a 95% match to the defendant's gun, meaning out of x number of guns in the state, only y number could have ejected this bullet.

All MOO

I wish I had said “murder case,” as the case you described would be the exact type of case where I could see an unspent round playing a role.

I’ll bet there are countless armed robberies where that’s happened.

 

[BUF]

(7) that jurors, including alternates, may seek to ask questions of the witnesses by submission of questions in writing.

It will be interesting to see what questions the jury asks from the testimony at trial

 

[MassGuy]

I was hoping we’d get updates more frequently than twice a day, but that seems to be the way things are going to go.

Frustrating!

 

[TTF14]

It will be interesting to see what questions the jury asks from the testimony at trial

Has the judge granted this? I know it's legal in Indiana, but I'm assuming, like in Florida, it's up to the judge's discretion whether they allow it or not. I'd be shocked if Judge Gull allows/welcomes questions from the jury.

As always, JMO.

 

[Melted]

https://www.wane.com/news/state-defense-deliver-opening-statements-in-delphi-murders-trial/

this is all i've found so far that mentions two different knives.

Wow wow wow!!!!

There were 2 different knives!!!!

This is 100X the bombshell that people were making the hair out to be.

Jmo

 

[Melted]

What makes less sense is removing the girls from the area, turning the phone off, killing them, and then returning them to very near where they disappeared. While being undetected, leaving no trace evidence that we know of at this point, leaving a bloody crime scene that was apparently indicative of a struggle, and then... turning the phone back on? I'm not sure that scenario is super reasonable when the alternative is them crossing a shallow creek to the site where they were killed.

I also seem to remember when the defense claimed in numerous Franks motions, as well as during the 3 day hearings, that the girls were killed at that location during a ritual sacrifice. Perlmutter testified how symbolic that area was to the sacrifice. They even speculated that there was no blood at the crime scene (even though there was) because the blood had been collected for "future rituals". This theory that they spent many months trying to shoehorn in is wildly at odds with the current theory.

Unfortunately, the jury will not be able to see the complete grasping at straws by the defense... but I have a feeling the defense theory will fall flat anyway because a lot of their claims are going to require a huge suspension of disbelief... plus whatever contradictory evidence the prosecution will show (I am particularly interested in RA's phone activity that day).

All my opinion.

https://timothycharlesholmseth.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Memorandum-in-Support-of-Motionpdf-delphi.pdf

For the record the defense didn’t claim that the girls were taken, killed somewhere else and then brought there to dump.

They claimed the girls were taken and then returned there early the next morning at which point they were killed where they were found.

IMO

 

[Seattle1]

I'm very interested in when, and by whom, the unspent bullet was found.

As always, JMO.

There was no Grand Jury for this case, and this is from the PCA dated 10/27/22 released pursuant to a MSM public records request. I don't believe Discovery including police reports have been released:

Court documents released in Delphi murder case: Read the probable cause affidavit here

The affidavit does not indicate how Libby German or Abby Williams were killed Feb. 13, 2017. Read the probable cause affidavit here.

www.indystar.com

 

[Bbgiraffe]

Wow wow wow!!!!

There were 2 different knives!!!!

This is 100X the bombshell that people were making the hair out to be.

Jmo

I don't think so, I mean that is just a statement from the defense which has no evidence backing it up that anyone has seen yet. We have seen how the defense seems to operate.

 

[TTF14]

I don't think so, I mean that is just a statement from the defense which has no evidence backing it up that anyone has seen yet. We have seen how the defense seems to operate.

Just my opinion, but I don't think they are making it up. How would that benefit them moving forward?

As always, JMO.

 

[Melted]

I don't think so, I mean that is just a statement from the defense which has no evidence backing it up that anyone has seen yet. We have seen how the defense seems to operate.

The defense isn’t going to make a claim in their opening statement that isn’t backed by facts imo

 

[MiniMoo]

They did test it and found it came from a female member of the family.

No need to test any further. Or was BG really a woman???

Oh.. please.... defense is spit balling.

Barbara MacDonald on CourtTV brought a bit more up about that hair and it doesn't seem to have been tested against female family members of either girl.

BM states more or less:

"It does come from a female and according to the Defense that hair was was never tested against any of Abby or Libby's relatives or friends..."

Seems that the State is now scrambling to have it tested.

Source: CourtTV.