Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

[twall]

Dbm redundant

 

[FrostedGlass]

T

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #202'

Oct 23, 2024

Asking people to believe the phone powered itself off at 10:30 pm and then powered itself back on at 4:30 am with no human interference is similar to asking people to toss logic out of the window and believe in a fairy tale.


MOO

I just read an article where the 10:32 pm power off of phone conclusion was "premature." They did so many dumps of Libby's phone things kept changing. Just like the murder weapon. sigh. JMO

Cecil stated he no longer believes the phone died at 10:32 p.m. and called his previous conclusion “premature.” Additional information led Cecil to believe the...

• twall

• 

It was here:
[snips]
Cecil stated he no longer believes the phone died at 10:32 p.m. and called his previous conclusion “premature.” Additional information led Cecil to believe the phone stayed on until 4:34 a.m. when it received the numerous text messages.

He also noted there was “no indication” that the phone was ever turned off after its last movement near 2:30 p.m. on Feb. 13.

When asked about why the phone didn’t have any activity between 10:32 p.m. and 4:34 a.m., Cecil said, “I do not know why.”

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

 

[Simply Southern]

T

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #202'

Oct 23, 2024

Asking people to believe the phone powered itself off at 10:30 pm and then powered itself back on at 4:30 am with no human interference is similar to asking people to toss logic out of the window and believe in a fairy tale.


MOO

I just read an article where the 10:32 pm power off of phone conclusion was "premature." They did so many dumps of Libby's phone things kept changing. Just like the murder weapon. sigh. JMO

Cecil stated he no longer believes the phone died at 10:32 p.m. and called his previous conclusion “premature.” Additional information led Cecil to believe the...

• twall

• 

I'm concerned...

•witness statements don't match RA, have changed over time
•the pathologist, changing his conclusion on the witness stand, was NOT a serrated knife. Why didn't he check this out with his peers? I'm also disappointed in the autopsy results, did he ever acknowledge if he took clippings from Libby. Moo ... It was stated Abby was a nail biter and had nothing to cut.

•IT tech changes his testimony to now say the phone was not turned off, he originally assumed it was off do the battery.

I'm definitely Team Prosecution !!! Hoping P can bring forth creditable, intelligence and extremely confident witnesses today.

Moo

 

[m00c0w]

The change in elevation information tightens up the "kidnapping" time. IMO
There is almost no time between the change and when the phone stopped moving. I'm having a hard time getting that to work.
(Info from the link)
Cecil said cell phone pings confirmed Libby’s cell phone was in the vicinity of the bridge at 2:05 p.m. A photo posted to Snapchat at this same time showed Abby walking on the bridge. Two minutes later is the last time Libby’s phone would be unlocked.

At 2:13.51 p.m., Libby took the infamous “Bridge Guy” video that captures a man walking behind the girls and telling them, “guys, down the hill.”

At 2:31 p.m., cell phone records note a change in longitude, altitude and elevation. Cecil explained this meant the phone was on the move as the girls were reportedly led down a hill and possibly across Deer Creek.

By 2:32.39 p.m., the phone was no longer moving. It never moved again nor did it ever ping anywhere outside the trails, Deer Creek and the site where the girls’ bodies would be found on Feb.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

I think this is a poorly worded version of what Cecil was likely saying (regarding the 2:31 data). I’m not sure if that’s Cecil’s fault or the media’s.

Cellebrite aggregates health data into chunks. It’s not one step at 2:14:01.0, one step at 2:14:01.5… and so on. It will log that, say, 700 steps were taken by 2:08 PM, and then an additional log at 2:31 PM will be the cumulative amount of steps, elevation change, etc, from the previous log forward. I believe what was being conveyed is the next log point was 2:31, which recorded the total number of steps and elevation change since the last reporting time.

https://cellebrite.com/en/how-health-app-data-improves-location-accuracy-and-activity-identification-for-investigations/

WTHR’s reporting on this seems to back up this interpretation, simply noting that the phone recorded 700 steps between 1:31 and 2:08, and then the last movement was recorded at 2:32.

'I don't know' | Investigator describes unexplained gap in data from Libby's phone | Day 5 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

What is more interesting to me is this tidbit:
Cecil stated he no longer believes the phone died at 10:32 p.m. and called his previous conclusion “premature.” Additional information led Cecil to believe the phone stayed on until 4:34 a.m. when it received the numerous text messages.

He also noted there was “no indication” that the phone was ever turned off after its last movement near 2:30 p.m. on Feb. 13.
From the fox59 report.

 

[snooptroop88]

It was here:
[snips]
Cecil stated he no longer believes the phone died at 10:32 p.m. and called his previous conclusion “premature.” Additional information led Cecil to believe the phone stayed on until 4:34 a.m. when it received the numerous text messages.

He also noted there was “no indication” that the phone was ever turned off after its last movement near 2:30 p.m. on Feb. 13.

When asked about why the phone didn’t have any activity between 10:32 p.m. and 4:34 a.m., Cecil said, “I do not know why.”

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

"While questions remained about the phone’s period of inactivity, locator pings never placed the phone outside the Monon High Bridge area and the site near Deer Creek where the girls’ bodies — and the phone — were found. This lack of movement casts doubt on the defense team’s floated theory of a possible abduction and off-site killing."

https://www.wdtn.com/news/delphi-murders-phone-pings-cast-doubt-on-defenses-alternate-site-killing-theory/

 

[Inthedetails]

If the girls were bundled into a waiting car and taken to a secret location after 2pm, yet the phone was always on until after 10pm - why did the cellular network not see the phone move and the phone has no onboard activity or any GPS update?

This dog doesn't hunt

MOO

And why in the world would anyone take the girls and then return them to the same general location, only in a place that's even harder for them to reach, and in the dark. Wouldn't perps dump bodies far away from where people would be searching and pick a spot that would be easier on them?!

Makes zero sense.

jmo

 

[m00c0w]

I'm concerned...

•witness statements don't match RA, have changed over time
•the pathologist, changing his conclusion on the witness stand, was NOT a serrated knife. Why didn't he check this out with his peers? I'm also disappointed in the autopsy results, did he ever acknowledge if he took clippings from Libby. Moo ... It was stated Abby was a nail biter and had nothing to cut.

•IT tech changes his testimony to now say the phone was not turned off, he originally assumed it was off do the battery.

I'm definitely Team Prosecution !!! Hoping P can bring forth creditable, intelligence and extremely confident witnesses today.

Moo

To clarify, he’s said that his original assumption that the phone turned off around 10:30 was premature, and that he doesn’t see any activity to indicate it was manually turned off between 2:30pm and 4:33am (which would be reflected in logs).

This is a side effect of the defense showing their hand very early and allowing more research to be done so witnesses aren’t caught off guard on the stand. If the first time this came up was at trial, it would be a slam dunk for the defense because Cecil would have been clueless. However, they gave him time to look into and answer very specific questions they had… and that resulted in some unfavorable testimony for them.

Same with the medical examiner.

I would even go as far as to say this is exactly why you don’t relentlessly project your theories for months on end for media clout.

All my opinion.

 

[twall]

View attachment 540186
Screen shot from Fox59 video.

https://fox59.com/video/libbys-cellphone-timeline-revealed-during-delphi-murders-trial/10156220/

The 10:32 pm was later stated to be not true.

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203' Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

 

[steeltowngirl]

Was RA's wife interviewed?

Yes. It was in the PCA, pg 5.

“The PC confirms that Kathy Allen spoke to detectives and admitted that her husband owned guns and knives and a blue Carhartt jacket like that worn by the suspected killer in the cell phone video.”

https://cbs4indy.com/news/indycrime/questions-remain-after-release-of-delphi-murder-docs/

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[FrostedGlass]

IMO
This article was updated last night. It's lengthy but worth the read.
Cecil's outline of the recorded movement:
IMO down the hill is way more than 20 feet. We need more information on where they were at 1:31.
[snip]
1:31 pm – 2:08 pm – 1,682 steps (707.34 meters)
2:08 pm – 2:18 pm – 414.38 meters
2:25 pm – 2:32 pm – 66 steps (50.64 meters)
2:31 pm – two-floor elevation change

Cecil’s testimony explained the iPhone uses 10 feet as it’s estimation for distance for a “floor,” meaning the two-floor elevation change would be about 20 feet. The Health App, he explained, doesn’t record a duration for the elevation change. He said that it happened during the steps taken from 2:25 pm to 2:32 pm.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

 

[Justice101]

The phone data should have been easily explained by a competent forensic electronics person.

Were these State of Indiana investigators at their lab?

Do we have everything we need from Cecil to understand the data fully?

 

[snooptroop88]

The 10:32 pm was later stated to be not true.

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203' Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #203

Understood, and Cecil didn't know why any of this is occurring. That doesn't take away from the fact that the phone didn't ping elsewhere, which would actually support the D's theory. Cecil doesn't know why it happened. He's saying his conclusion was "premature." If he doesn't know why it's happening, he really can't say if he's wrong or right. He suspected before he was right, now he suspects he is probably wrong.

If the girls were bundled into a waiting car and taken to a secret location after 2pm, yet the phone was always on until after 10pm - why did the cellular network not see the phone move and the phone has no onboard activity or any GPS update?

This dog doesn't hunt

MOO

Any explanation for that? I'm not playing "gotcha," just asking.

 

[twall]

IMO
This article was updated last night. It's lengthy but worth the read.
Cecil's outline of the recorded movement:
IMO down the hill is way more than 20 feet. We need more information on where they were at 1:31.
[snip]
1:31 pm – 2:08 pm – 1,682 steps (707.34 meters)
2:08 pm – 2:18 pm – 414.38 meters
2:25 pm – 2:32 pm – 66 steps (50.64 meters)
2:31 pm – two-floor elevation change

Cecil’s testimony explained the iPhone uses 10 feet as it’s estimation for distance for a “floor,” meaning the two-floor elevation change would be about 20 feet. The Health App, he explained, doesn’t record a duration for the elevation change. He said that it happened during the steps taken from 2:25 pm to 2:32 pm.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

IMO WANE is doing great reporting on the trial. I have always liked Alyssa Ivanson. She's been at WANE for years.

 

[Justice101]

Understood, and Cecil didn't know why any of this is occurring. That doesn't take away from the fact that the phone didn't ping elsewhere, which would actually support the D's theory. Cecil doesn't know why it happened. He's saying his conclusion was "premature." If he doesn't know why it's happening, he really can't say if he's wrong or right. He suspected before he was right, now he suspects he is probably wrong.

Any explanation for that? I'm not playing "gotcha," just asking.

Can I ask why would the defense need to say the girls were taken away and returned to the CS?

How would that help the defense? I am struggling understanding that motivation. help me

 

[m00c0w]

Understood, and Cecil didn't know why any of this is occurring. That doesn't take away from the fact that the phone didn't ping elsewhere, which would actually support the D's theory. Cecil doesn't know why it happened. He's saying his conclusion was "premature." If he doesn't know why it's happening, he really can't say if he's wrong or right. He suspected before he was right, now he suspects he is probably wrong.

Any explanation for that? I'm not playing "gotcha," just asking.

The phone stayed where it was and lost signal for any number of reasons. At some point in the early morning, atmospherics slightly improved and the phone regained a signal. This is not an uncommon phenomenon in the slightest, especially in rural areas with spotty cell service.

JMO

 

[susiQ]

So inside out seems to mean to me that BG took them off the girls himself?

I can see a wet shirt and underwear being inside out taking them off yourself... but not the pants.

What do you think? It probably doesn't matter.

Have you ever tried to take off a pair of skinny jeans? Or, a wet bathing suit? And, why do I always find my grandkids clothes inside out on the floor, including their sweatpants . I’m not saying Abby took them off, or the killer(s), we just have no way of knowing for sure at this point, or ever, unless there was foreign DNA. JMO as always.

 

[KSwizzle]

It really seems like the investigators bungled this case, I still think RA did it but if I was the defense I would have said something like, yes RA was bridge guy but that’s all he was some person in the background, he did not kill the girls. You’re going to see there’s no dna from RA, the person who SC saw supposedly bloody and muddy was wearing different pants than RA, the unspent bullet won’t hold up, and there are other more plausible suspects in KK who was actively catfishing one of the girls and was going to meet up with them at the trails

Now obviously his confessions are an issue you might be able to argue he was under extreme mental duress or something I hope the prosecution has more evidence than it seems like they have, somethings don’t look good like when the ME changes his theory to match the confessions and also say he’s wrong 1 in 10 times on his reporting

 

[m00c0w]

Can I ask why would the defense need to say the girls were taken away and returned to the CS?

How would that help the defense? I am struggling understanding that motivation. help me

Because they strongly need to move the timeframe of the murders to a time that excludes RA, but inculpates the Odinists. If they say that the girls were there the whole time, that becomes much harder to accomplish. If they say the girls were killed later, it is not at all credible that the kidnapper(s)/murderer(s) were there for over 12 hours with the girls (which is the timeframe they need).

JMO

 

[Jade]

I think SC came off incredibly reliable. She took no crap from Baldwin who was intentionally antagonizing her IMO, but that does not make her testimony less believable.

If anything she was even more adamant and stood her ground on the statements she gave in 2017 and what she said from 2022-trial.

MOO

Absolutely authentic. So brave to stand up to that dishonest huckster Baldwin.

This crime was about power and control of girls then when a strong girl stands up for herself in court there it goes- loud, combative, not credible, all the old discriminations, stereotyping directed at women and girls.

SC did just what a witness should be doing; telling her own story truthfully.

If the jury finds the testimony helpful then good but if they don’t that’s ok.

What’s important is the witness came forward then got up on the stand and told what she saw and heard that day to the best of her recollection.

all imo

 

[FrostedGlass]

IMO WANE is doing great reporting on the trial. I have always liked Alyssa Ivanson. She's been at WANE for years.

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm not overly familiar with any of these sources. I'm torn between wanting something hot off the presses and wanting the most accurate.