Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[TristanP]

One thing I have always wondered is why when somebody asks for a lawyer do they not put suspect in cell and get a lawyer and then question them with a lawyer present, even if they choose to not answer questions LE still get to ask
In England you can have your solicitor (lawyer) when being questioned and they will ask questions and show suspect evidence even if they are refusing to answer "no comment" is the answer most give,
and all interrogations are recorded, nothing off the record, and one more question are there time limits in how long you can keep a suspect in police custody before they must be either charged or released? or as in England they have to go to magistrate (judge) to ask for more time

Yes, there are time limits as to how long someone can be detained without being charged. Typically 48 hours.

Sometimes hey seek a way to charge them with another crime in order to keep them incarcerated (for example, follow them around if they're not in jail, and watch for a traffic violation, etc.) They usually do this if the suspect is likely to flee or harm someone else. They were keeping an eye on Scott Peterson, and arrested him when it became clear he was about to try to get to Mexico, for example.

 

[ClearAhead]

I'm sorry, I just see absolutely no dealings between RA and LE where LE looks like a bunch of vicious thugs and RA looks like some innocent lamb. RA doesn't react in a normal way for someone involved in the case of the murder of two children. The D tried to make him sound like some sort of boy scout for calling himself in, but to my knowledge, he didn't do that until Feb 16. He saw young girls on a trail the same day young girls disappeared and then were found murdered, and he said he didn't get a good look at those girls on the trail. How did he know two of those girls weren't the victims? He seems to have taken his time calling and I'm not seeing "boy scout" in that, I'm sorry. I don't see boy scout in his sometimes flippant tone during investigations or his sometimes aggressive "Rambo"-like approach at moments.

RA looks guilty. I believe RA is BG and guilty. Will the jury think so? Who knows at this point? But I do know false confessions don't contain information only the killer would know. If the information's accessible in discovery, that's not actually information only the killer would know. But we'll have to hear the content, timing, and circumstances of all these incriminating statements and weigh them accordingly.

Doesn't look like it was the best day for the P with their witness re: RA's gun basically saying you can't count out other guns and it's not an exact match. There's nothing that strange about this idea of not being able to count out other guns. This isn't DNA. It doesn't have the precision, everyone's aware of that. It's a shame, though, the P couldn't frame the questioning so it had more of a slant towards what the analysis did show than what it didn't. "There's a strong likelihood this bullet came from RA's gun" sounds plenty better than the way it's noted in MSM.

The reoccurring theme that’s surfacing in the defence arguments is that Richard Allen is a tender little petunia being treated so mean that’s it caused him to confess to something he didn’t do. MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

He's seems to like the angry approach to cross examination. I've heard he's put his foot in his mouth a few times, probably because of that demeanor. Different people in the courtroom have noticed it. Probably better for the defense to use AB more. MO

The angry approach can be effective if he’s addressing valid points for limited periods of time. But it can come across as offensive and obnoxious to a jury if he’s blowing hot air for too long.

In his mind he might think he close to winning the battle but in reality he’s lost the war if the jury has tuned him out. MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

Is the witness a ballistics expert or a metallurgist? I doubt both. If the P is worth a salt, he would trend that way during cross. However that I am aware, the state did leave opportunities on the table with past witnesses, IMO.

BTW, do you know if RA had military training? I seem to recall reading somewhere he was in the guard at one time & had kept his hair short since then. Am I mistaken? This might lead back to our further musings on the escape.

Yes RA had military training. TMS reported Holeman testified both he and RA shared the same background and therefore chatted about it early on in the interview. IIRC Holeman said he wished he had a private shooting range, possibly to draw out RA’s shooting habits. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

One thing I have always wondered is why when somebody asks for a lawyer do they not put suspect in cell and get a lawyer and then question them with a lawyer present, even if they choose to not answer questions LE still get to ask
In England you can have your solicitor (lawyer) when being questioned and they will ask questions and show suspect evidence even if they are refusing to answer "no comment" is the answer most give,
and all interrogations are recorded, nothing off the record, and one more question are there time limits in how long you can keep a suspect in police custody before they must be either charged or released? or as in England they have to go to magistrate (judge) to ask for more time

No, once a suspect asks for a lawyer they cannot be asked any more questions or questioned at a later date unless the suspect decides to do that. Typically all interrogations are video recorded now, but not all jurisdictions require it.

 

[DoctorRose]

JMO but I started out the trial thinking RA was the guy and confident that P would present the evidence to prove it BARD. Now I’m not sure whether RA is the guy and with what we’ve been given so far, I wouldn’t vote to convict him. I know the trial is still ongoing but if I were a juror at this point my needle would be pointing at NG and I’d be waiting for some more convincing evidence.

A big issue I have with analyzing RAs reactions to his arrest is that we know he had clinical depression already. Maybe he’s basically like “idk execute me I guess who cares” because he’s depressed and doesn’t have it in him to fight for himself. He’s also told that the video and audio were matched to him. Maybe he’s thinking there’s no point in protesting.

There’s a term called “learned helplessness” where basically if you feel like crap always goes wrong for you, you stop trying to change it because you don’t think you can. Trigger warning on some of the research on it for sad lab animal experiments but basically if you have a mouse in a cage and it keeps receiving an unpleasant stimulus no matter which part of the cage it moves to it’ll eventually just sit still and stop trying to get away from the stimulus.

Which is weird, we expect animals and people to naturally fight against or move away from something that causes them distress. But no, there’s a point where they stop trying to do anything about it.

I also always wonder about the difference between a person being guilty or deceptive and a person who is just sort of an oddball. Someone who’s ADHD, autistic, has anxiety, whatever it is might have behaviors, thought processes, and ways of communicating that are outside the norm but not indicative of guilt. So in any trial I am going to need more than “he said this weird thing” or “he didn’t react as we would expect”.

RA did appear to be scared and worried, especially for his wife. What was his understanding of the situation and what was he worried about? I hope we learn more.

 

[ClearAhead]

<snip for reply>

The crime scene is really messed up. Was he drunk? Did he play beer pong style drinking games? We have two young teen girls under his control from 2:13 - 3:30 pm. The rest was clean up and get back to his car - 3:56 sighting. That's at least an hour and, so far, we've heard that there is no evidence of sexual assault. Maybe the tie-dyed t-shirt had evidence that washed away in the creek.

One of the girls is naked, the other is wearing some of her friends clothing. Complete speculation, but were they playing a game where they were undressed, and then started getting dressed until one was wearing all the clothes and the other is still naked, then they die? It's really bizarre crime scene. The one wearing all the clothes was killed quick and clean. She managed to conceal the very important cell phone. The other one was subjected to a brutal death that started with a non-fatal injury. There was a struggle between the accused and Victim #2. It strikes me as a really dangerous man. Numbers are speculation:
Abby Yellow
Libby Red

Gosh Otto, this is a chilling dark thought to imagine but it could explain the clothing or lack thereof, how the girls were found. RA is of the age to be familiar with beer pong. Forcing them to play some sort of sick game verges into psycho territory but for lack of any other explanation, it’s certainly a possibility. MOO

 

[Niner]

Just wondering - have any of the reporters/bloggers mentioned the ages of the jurors? you know - from 20s to 70s...

Also - IF you happen to post a docket update - PLEASE "Tag" me- TIA!

 

[Bergmann]

it's just an inherently imperfect case.

That cost $4m plus.

Lots of problems imo and very little has been landed beyond a reasonable doubt IMO.

I'm very disappointed that we haven't seen anything beyond the original PCA and really expected that the state would be coming to court with much much more.

However there is still time and the alleged confessions are coming up so we'll see what else the state has.

All JMO.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

maybe there will never be the sort of indisputable proof that you might expect but that doesn’t mean a jury can’t draw conclusions from what they’ve been presented with.

Juries can’t just draw conclusions- the case must be BARD- I’ve been on juries and one case the person was absolutely guilty AND the investigation was totally botched and sloppy and evidence improperly collected and handled etc- luckily it was a misdemeanor nonviolent crime- but given the charges and what the jury was tasked with, we returned a not guilty because the P did not have a case BARD with what they presented and what the individual was charged with-

I’m thankful I’ve never been on a felony case- but the prosecution has to prove BARD that RA is guilty as charged - if individuals on the jury think he’s guilty but the P hasn’t proven their case BARD then an acquittal would be appropriate-

BG is the killer and RA is BG hasn’t been shown BARD thus far in my opinion- and if the confessions were lock tight I’d have to wonder why they didn’t start there-

IANAL- MOO

 

[MassGuy]

That cost $4m plus.

Lots of problems imo and very little has been landed beyond a reasonable doubt IMO.

I'm very disappointed that we haven't seen anything beyond the original PCA and really expected that the state would be coming to court with much much more.

However there is still time and the alleged confessions are coming up so we'll see what else the state has.

All JMO.

This is what I want:

More witnesses: People who worked with him, people who knew him; people who can testify to any post offense changes in behavior.

Information regarding any internet searches he performed, especially around the time of press releases/press conferences (might be a big ask).

Those confessions of course. The state had better have been completely honest when it comes to how they have characterized them. I am not expecting most, or even many to offer compelling proof of his guilt in their substance, but I need to see that he confessed in a way that makes sense of things we cannot make sense of (clothing stuff especially), and/or offers up evidence that he would not have been privy to/could not just guess via the volume of his confessions.

 

[ClearAhead]

Juries can just draw conclusions- the case must be BARD- I’ve been on juries and one case the person was absolutely guilty AND the investigation was totally botched and sloppy and evidence improperly collected and handled etc- luckily it was a misdemeanor nonviolent crime- but given the charges and what the jury was tasked with, we returned a not guilty because the P did not have a case BARD with what they presented and what the individual was charged with-

I’m thankful I’ve never been on a felony case- but the prosecution has to prove BARD that RA is guilty as charged - if individuals on the jury think he’s guilty but the P hasn’t proven their case BARD then an acquittal would be appropriate-

BG is the killer and RA is BG hasn’t been shown BARD thus far in my opinion- and if the confessions were lock tight I’d have to wonder why they didn’t start there-

IANAL- MOO

Right but what’s BARD to one person is not the same to another as ‘doubt’ is dependent on opinion. Even those who are attending a trial will never be able to predict the jury’s conclusion. Even more impossible for those of us here who are relying on texts and youtube videos. The jury has been tasked with the right to draw their conclusion without outside coaching. JMO

 

[INfisherman]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

<modsnip - snarky>

"This is the 112th time she has testified as a toolmark examiner and said her testimony has come in both federal and state jurisdictions. She most recently testified in a Marion County case in August."

"She said that over her 17-year career and 100+ criminal trials, her findings have never been found in error or reversed."

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-forensic-firearms-examiner-discusses-toolmark-methodology-unspent-bullet-evidence/

 

[Jade]

Bridge guy is on the bridge, not one person who saw BG has done an in court identification that it was RA, neither have the state proven BG was the murderer, neither have they proven RA is BG
So they have lots of work yet to do, as jury cannot just assume RA is BG the state has to prove it, and they have to prove BG did the murders,
So for me they have to move the needle to prove RA is BG first, the confessions and ballistic evidence for me is nothing if they can't prove RA is BG

Of course not one person has done a court identification from the stand that is not what they were in court to do.

The witnesses were there to tell what they saw and heard that day to the best of their recollections.

You do understand these were passerbys not direct witness to the crime?

They only know they saw the same man as LG's video shows in what were the last seconds before the girls disappeared from their walk and were later found dead.

BG was dressed heavily, not interacting full face, had head covered so they would not be able to definitively say that RA out of his BG disguise is BG while in regular clothes in the court room thus not asked to do so.

All imo

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850326301783073167

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850505922566594678

 

[Deleted member 296739]

The jury has been tasked with the right to draw their conclusion without outside coaching.

Right- that’s why they’re sequestered- moo

 

[photographer4]

Yes RA had military training. TMS reported Holeman testified both he and RA shared the same background and therefore chatted about it early on in the interview. IIRC Holeman said he wished he had a private shooting range, possibly to draw out RA’s shooting habits. JMO

Yeah and Andrea burkhart spoke about the shooting range last night on her live. Holeman asked RA if he shoots often and RA said no. I linked to her live a few times last night and don’t have the link handy so pls search for my prior posts if in doubt.

 

[Bergmann]

This is what I want:

More witnesses: People who worked with him, people who knew him; people who can testify to any post offense changes in behavior.

Information regarding any internet searches he performed, especially around the time of press releases/press conferences (might be a big ask).

Those confessions of course. The state had better have been completely honest when it comes to how they have characterized them. I am not expecting most, or even many to offer compelling proof of his guilt in their substance, but I need to see that he confessed in a way that makes sense of things we cannot make sense of (clothing stuff especially), and/or offers up evidence that he would not have been privy to/could not just guess via the volume of his confessions.

I like your list.

For a brutal and frenzied double murder in broad daylight I'd have also wanted -

1. Direct evidence tying the accused to the crime scene
2. Direct evidence linking the victims to the accused
3. This includes DNA, fingerprints, blood contamination, digital forensics, cell phone tracking etc
4. Witnesses that could identify the accused rather than the guy on the video
5. More witnesses seeing the murder exit the scene and escaping covered in blood
6. More factual info about time and cause of death
7. An actual murder weapon (linking back to #1&2)
8. A more compelling investigation & presentation of the infamous DTH video

I concede that I obviously know I'm not going to get much if any of the above from what we have seen so far IMO.

Pretty disappointing for $4m IMO.

 

[arielilane]

Courtney Spinelli, a reporter for the FOX affiliate, spoke to one of Allen’s neighbors. That man, Joe Seurynck, indicated that he saw “a couple of police cars” at Allen’s property last week but didn’t think “much of it.” Spinelli also said neighbors saw officers digging up a “fire pit” in Allen’s yard.

WXIN, who also assigned reporter Max Lewis to talk to the locals, said that most residents felt a sense of “relief” that an arrest had been made.

New Photo Shows Man Reportedly Arrested in Connection with Delphi Murders as Neighbors React: 'I Would Talk; He Wouldn't Say Much'

A local television station on Saturday published a picture that it says depicts a man currently behind bars in connection with Indiana's Delphi Murders.

lawandcrime.com

Oct 29th, 2022, 7:06 pm