Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #211

[snooptroop88]

I am confused about why someone seeing a white truck at the CPS building at 4:20pm is relevant to anything. Is it just me? Does the defense really just throw anything at the wall on this thing or what?

YES.

 

[taylorss]

Clearly not since no one tipped him in by name in all those thousands upon thousands of tips. The only one tip to LE with his name was the one he gave… himself. Moo.

his own wife - maybe SHE encouraged him to tip himself in the day after the BG pic was released
Moo

 

[Vern]

Just wondering, why would the Defense risk their careers by lying to the court? They know he said things - they've heard the recordings that were available. If they asked RA and he said he said these things, they can't say he didn't say them - that would be lying to the court. I think they're doing the right thing by showing how the statements were were affected by his living conditions/treatment/medications/isolation etc... MOOO.

Even if they had though - in 2022? No one could really say with certainty that a bullet there came from Feb 13/2017 could they? I mean how would they prove it?

Above RBBM,

Given the bolded statement in the first post and the bolded statement in the second post, apparently it's quite common in this case for 2 X judges, the prosecuting attorneys, LE, correctional staff, experts such as the Coronor, the ballistic expert, 2 X state psych examiners of RA, tech data & cell phone analyzers, all the witnesses and the interrupter - BW, amongst others, to all be lying, manipulating evidence or, "shading their testimony" and risking their careers.

Why stop at the prosecution? The Defense are actually mere mortals too.

Just MO. IMO, JMT.

 

[taylorss]

TMS is reporting that RA had severe separion anxiety as a child. In school. Worried he wouldn't be able to go back home or something bad would happen to his family

Had lots of insecurity around work and what people think of him. Would get promoted into managerial positions at work, worried workers would be upset with him having to direct them. Would cry, curl up in a ball. They'd demote him, Kathy would support him and help put him back together.

Discussion of dependent personality disorder.

Conclusion of pyschiatrist: he's a fragile egg. Long history of mental illness.

JMO

Is this normal?? I've never seen a criminal trial with an irrelevant post-arrest sob story instead of a defense.... is this our "therapeutic culture" run amok?
IMO

 

[schooling]

TMS is reporting that RA had severe separion anxiety as a child. In school. Worried he wouldn't be able to go back home or something bad would happen to his family

Had lots of insecurity around work and what people think of him. Would get promoted into managerial positions at work, worried workers would be upset with him having to direct them. Would cry, curl up in a ball. They'd demote him, Kathy would support him and help put him back together.

Discussion of dependent personality disorder.

Conclusion of pyschiatrist: he's a fragile egg. Long history of mental illness.

JMO

Sounds a lot like "Frozen State" (IMO). Of course I'm not qualified in anyway to decisively (or indecisively) say, so it's all just my opinion only and nothing more.

As someone who had to walk away from a high level corporate executive position and take a year off, I'm all too familiar.

 

[justtrish]

TMS is reporting that RA had severe separion anxiety as a child. In school. Worried he wouldn't be able to go back home or something bad would happen to his family

Had lots of insecurity around work and what people think of him. Would get promoted into managerial positions at work, worried workers would be upset with him having to direct them. Would cry, curl up in a ball. They'd demote him, Kathy would support him and help put him back together.

Discussion of dependent personality disorder.

Conclusion of pyschiatrist: he's a fragile egg. Long history of mental illness.

JMO

Wow no wonder he needed to find 2 young girls. IMO he wouldn't have to worry about what they think of him..

IMO

 

[Teche]

TMS is reporting that RA had severe separion anxiety as a child. In school. Worried he wouldn't be able to go back home or something bad would happen to his family

Had lots of insecurity around work and what people think of him. Would get promoted into managerial positions at work, worried workers would be upset with him having to direct them. Would cry, curl up in a ball. They'd demote him, Kathy would support him and help put him back together.

Discussion of dependent personality disorder.

Conclusion of pyschiatrist: he's a fragile egg. Long history of mental illness.

JMO

Did the family direct RA to a Mental Health provider for evaluations, medication management, and counseling services? I don't remember any psych hospitalizations. The wife did call 911 and he was taken to ER.

 

[steeltowngirl]

his own wife - maybe SHE encouraged him to tip himself in the day after the BG pic was released
Moo

KA did ask him to contact LE after the BG pic was released. That’s what led to the DD interview.

I would like to know if RA or KA ever mentioned to any friends or relatives that RA was out there that day, didn’t see anything, etc.

It would seem they’d mention it in social circles, since Libby and Abby were discussed so often in Delphi.

If they never told a soul, why not?

 

[Vern]

I think he told the prosecutors that he dropped off a trailer on the way home.

But interesting that RA did not mention a van pulling a trailer in the so-called confession.

Why? BW had already dropped the trailer off; he passed by RA and interruprted him while on the private driveway to his parents home.

Sorry, I just don't get were you are going with the above. IMO.

 

[m00c0w]

Clearly not since no one tipped him in by name in all those thousands upon thousands of tips. The only one tip to LE with his name was the one he gave… himself. Moo.

All it takes, a lot of the time, is one person providing the tip that provides just enough information for investigators to finally be able to connect the dots.

The crazy thing is, there was only one such tip and it came from the probable murderer himself.

JMO

 

[Vaderman]

Today's Murder Sheet clarifies that RA's daughter said she was afraid of the bridge--not her father.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fifteen: Allen's Family Speaks

Podcast Episode · Murder Sheet · 11/05/2024 · 1h 48m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[zh0r4]

DPD. Serious Mental Health Issue?

@tlcya Thanks for your post.

From post:
"People with DPD often feel helpless, submissive and incapable of taking care of themselves. They may have trouble making simple decisions."
Per link: Westcott said he has DPD, "a mental health condition that involves an excessive need to be taken care of by others."

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but would being in prison exacerbate DPD? Why?

I've often read that prisoners have difficulty because they feel like they have no autonomy, because in that environment, a prisoner does not decide when to wake up, go to sleep, eat, to go outside, what to eat or wear, etc.

Seems prisoners are faced w relatively few decisions re activities of daily living, so I'm puzzled about that aspect of his deteriorating mental health.

That said, I've not seen those videos of him in prison or the rest of Westcott's testimony, so just an initial, oversimplified reaction to the Westcott's opinion. imo moo jmo

My understanding of their (Dr. Westcott & Dr. Walsh) testimony is DPD would have been present before prison. Prison would exacerbate any mental illness, especially when your functioning can totally break down when separated from your loved ones. JMO.

 

[snooptroop88]

128. Delphi Trial Week Three Part 1

Podcast Episode · The Prosecutors: Legal Briefs · 04/11/2024 · 1h 23m

podcasts.apple.com

According to the Prosecutors, it would definitely fall under disorganised. However the FBI has updated their definitions, since the modern day thinking is that elements of organisation and disorganisation can coexist in a perp and a crime scene.

View attachment 543080

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/serialmurder-pathwaysforinvestigations.pdf/view

And Richard Allen moo, has stepped forward as a perfect candidate to leave this very type of paradoxical CS: Organized CVS worker and former National Guard member, gun owner, homeowner, spouse and father; vs troubled alcoholic, a bad-tempered and demanding personality that displays aggression, fits of rage and madness, and someone that confesses and then seems to "unconfess" to murdering two little girls on a trail with a box cutter after being "interrupted" by a van. To put it bluntly, RA's thinking appears "scattered," sometimes rational and quite well considered, and other times not. And he left a CS that reflects that. Overall, though, I think RA is a lot more cunning than some give him credit for, and he may in the end have committed fewer "unforced errors" than he'd like us to believe.

 

[otto]

Lest we forget what made matters worse for RA was that his relatives refused to reassure him that they would still love him and not abandon him, even if it turned out that he was the killer. Bam!!

They stuck by him by repeatedly saying that he didn't do it, that they didn't want to hear about it, that he should keep quiet....

They didn't assure him that they would stand by him, even if he was the killer. I've said it before, this drove him into total emotional isolation and despair, which is why he told everyone his confessions.

He had to get rid of it...

Hadn't realized that before. Richard Allen repeatedly asks for reassurance from his wife and mother that they will still love him even though he murdered two teenage girls. They don't tell him that they will still love him. As you point out, they tell him to stay quiet.

I suppose that means they will continue to love him, but they don't want the shame of a confession - preferring to leave open the question that he was framed or some other dude did it.

Without confirmation that his wife and mother will still love him, does he then embark on an insanity defence of acting-out sexually in April 2023? His wife sold the house in August 2023.

He had to get rid of his confessions to keep his wife and mother in his court? There's no way that his mother did not recognize him as soon as his photo on the Monon Bridge was released. Same with his wife. The both recognized him and looked away, because, IMHO, they both got something from Richard Allen (financial or motherly) that they knew they couldn't get if he's in prison.

 

[shonyakay]

Location captures are every 10 minutes. From 2:08-2:18, Libby's phone moves from 707 meters elevation to 414 elevation. The time includes the 10 minute time interval that Libby was on the bridge with Abby before they were abducted to after the abduction.

1:31 pm – 2:08 pm – 1,682 steps (707.34 meters)
2:08 pm – 2:18 pm – 414.38 meters

There is no movement, or steps, from 2:18 to 2:25 pm. That must be where and when they were initially sexually assaulted. At 2:25 they're on the move again, with a 2 floor elevation in the last minute between 2:31 and 2:32 (the ravine, 66 steps (50.64 meters).

Libby stopped moving at approximately 2:15, and started moving again a 2:25. We estimate 2:15 because updates are 10 minute intervals, and 2:25 tracks back to 2:15, when there was no movement.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

Thank you so much for going in depth on this.

Do you believe 2:32 p.m., when Libby's phone ceased movement, is when the killer completed the fatal attack?

 

[otto]

Their job is to suggest reasonable doubt. I haven’t heard them accuse BW of being the killer at all (I’m behind a bit, but it wasn’t in the article I just posted)… I think with the BW van thing they’re just showing the State’s theory and timeline does not work. It’s not real. I agree with how they’ve presented this and poked holes in the State’s case.

The timeline for the crime scene, abducted at 2:13, immobilized by 2:18, stationary until 2:25, then on the move up the ravine, where they are murdered an hour later ... we need reasonable doubt for Richard Allen. He's all over the crime scene with direct and circumstantial evidence. Not surprising his lawyers are emotionally agitated.

 

[katydid23]

Dr. Westcott (Ph.D) has training in forensic psychology and neuropsychology, which are both extremely relevant to this case. She also said she is often a witness for the prosecution and has even been a witness for the prosecution and defense within the same trial. Everyone needs to make a living, Dr. Wala was also being paid. Nothing wrong with getting paid for your work.

I agree, nothing wrong at all w/getting paid for your work. And if you can pull $450 per hr, more power to ya!

Most all expert witnesses are paid. Dr. Westcott compiled a 132-page detailed report and said there was 20 hours of video to analyze.

JMO.

My issue is not the pay. I am skeptical because of what we were hearing back when the D said they were out of cash, and needed to raise $ for an expert in 'False Confessions.'

If you are in the market for an expert in 'false confessions', what are the chances that the expert is going to conclude that these confessions are reliable? I'd say ZERO.

I followed her testimony but I did not agree with some of her conclusions. I feel like it was tailored specifically to toss all of the 60+ confessions out, from the beginning. That was the goal, imo.

Edit @Cyber sleuth this is where I heard she did analyze the video of the phone calls, from about 5-10 min from start to 1 hr 30 min.

Source:
From the beginning to about 1 hr 30 min.

Dr Wala knows much more about the defendant than Dr. Westcott does, imo. She saw him almost every day and spoke with him, listened to him, treated him. Kept notes...She did not have a specific goal or narrative for her daily interactions other than trying to treat his health issues.

I believed her when she testified:

"she also monitored Allen for situational psychosis. She said it would last about a month and then he would return to normal.

She gave Allen games to occupy his mind and upgraded him to a constant suicide watch.

Wala testified that Allen spoke with his wife Kathy on the phone during this visit. He wanted Wala present so his wife could "understand" his confession. Wala said when Allen told Kathy "I killed Abby and Libby" she hung up.

"She doesn't believe me," Allen said a the time. "I didn't do everything I said, but I did kill Abby and Libby."

Wala noted that during this conversation, Allen showed no signs of psychosis and seemed to be calm.

 

[Spartygirl]

Wow no wonder he needed to find 2 young girls. IMO he wouldn't have to worry about what they think of him..

IMO

And he could have "Control" over them.

Just like Sgt Carter said at the 2019 presser

" We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know.
And one day, you will.
A question to you: What will those closest to you think of you when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Two children! Only a coward would do such a thing.

Delphi murders: New sketch of killer, video from Libby's phone released

Police released new evidence in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana.

www.indystar.com

 

[MassGuy]

#UPDATE: Updates from day 15 in the #Delphi double murders trial. Splitting this up into a few posts, feel free to click the link below for more details.

- We started the day hearing from Dr. Polly Westcott, a Carmel-based neuropsychologist with a focus on forensic psychology.
- She evaluated Richard Allen's mental state in August of 2023 after the defense retained her to do so.
- She used Allen's many phone calls, in-cell, medical records, camcorder video from Westville, and an in person interview to form her opinion on his condition.
- She came up with a few main conclusions. They are all listed on our site. But, especially of note: Allen had a long history of mental illness, he was not faking symptoms, his mental health rapidly deteriorated at Westville, and he had dependent personality disorder.
- He relied heavily on his wife, Kathy, to "feel like a whole person."
- His reported confessions were made while in a psychotic state.
- She said his Westville psychologist, Monica Wala, wrote about his confessions in a very linear, narrative, way. She said that, at the time, Allen was not thinking or communicating logically. She said video from inside his cell helped her prove that.
- The jury asked many questions about how Westcott came to her conclusion.
- The defense then called The jury once again saw video of Allen inside Westville, this time inside his cell.
- This video was again only shown to jurors, with the screen angled away from the gallery.
- The jury seemed engaged and taking notes, somewhat shocked at some points.
- The video came from two days: April 12 and May 23 of 2023. The first video was about an hour and 20 minutes, the second video was 26 minutes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853637412045394369

 

[INfisherman]

The reason I'm asking is because while watching the documentary Down the Hill: The Delphi murders episode 2 today on Youtube, there is a sheriff TL who is answering questions about evidence at the crime scene and he said there were finger prints. I had not heard that before or since following the trail, but found it interesting. You can hear this in the 2nd episode at about the 23 minute mark.

Can’t offer much more. It could’ve been mentioned during testimony & not reported. Or could also be possible they found a fingerprint but it wasn’t usable for whatever reason (partial print maybe?). It’s important to remember we aren’t being given the full scope of testimony due to JG courtroom restrictions (media, lack of recording devices, etc.).