GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #217

[somequestions]

Well, and he got them back. (I mean, I don't know that I'd say "the worst." The world's a big place.) I don't know if anyone here is following what's going on with John Bittrolff's appeal, but that was a case where the defendant imo had excellent counsel. Their client was convicted and now there are serious questions arising as to whether he was in fact the culprit. Time will tell, but whatever the outcome, the counsel for that client wasted no time in trying to point out logical disconnects in the P's case, and those very points they raised are forming the basis for the current push on that defendant's behalf. JMO, but there's no comparison between the counsel that handled that case and the one we're discussing right now.

Within the boundaries of reason and meeting the standard set by the court, yes. Nobody including Richard Allen, though, could come in and say a stampede of pink elephants with sword-wielding riders swooped in that very day, drugged him, and yeah, it must have been the elephant guys. And expect a court to say, okay, Rick, let's spend weeks as your attorneys explain what really happened with the elephant guys to the jury.

I agree, you cannot put forth any theory or talk about any person. You cannot say bigfoot did it. But you should be able to talk about KK and RL and the cult theory since all those were investigated by LE. I do not like the cult theory at all(my opinion), but I think if it is something him or his attorneys want to discuss as his defense, he should be able to do so.

 

[Tortoise]

How is she wrong? LL is an approved source, very well respected. She hardly posts click bait.

RSBM

I wanted to post an example of a comparison between LL's reporting, and the MurderSheet's reporting, of the same matter during trial, when defense asked to make a proffer, on day 15, during the defense case.

I've typed these up myself from the relevant podcasts linked below, and I've used different colors -

- red to highlight reporting on the defense submissions,
- blue for the prosecution's submissions,
- orange for the Judge
- green for podcaster's own opinions.
- black is neutral.

--

MurderSheet -


KG: But Andrew Baldwin wasn’t done yet. As you all may or may not remember there was this anecdote where EF er…

AC: …asked Kevin Murphy, so he gave his saliva to Kevin Murphy, right?

KG: Yes.

AC: Then he asked Kevin Murphy ‘if my spit ended up on the girls and I had a good reason for it would I be in trouble?’

KG: And so Andrew Baldwin said ‘Judge, I’ve a really cool idea. Why don’t I get Jerry Holeman who was one of the lead investigators on this case, I’ll get him on the stand, and I’ll say “Holeman, if Richard Allen made that comment about spit, would you be using that as evidence in this case?”’ and he said ‘after that, I may ask “if some of the evidence against Brad Holder and the others”, I may say “if that evidence existed against Richard Allen, would you, Jerry Holeman, the investigator, use that as evidence against Richard Allen?”. And McLeland, I think, symbolically must have slapped his forehead, he didn’t do that but I kind of felt that, he said ‘the evidence against EF was not enough to charge EF, like this spit thing, that’s not enough to charge him’.

AC: Someone saying some weird disturbing stuff is not enough and also don’t forget he brought in Brad Holder’s stick picture and the [inaudible]…

KG: …Yeah, all that stuff, he said ‘this evidence was not enough to bring charges against EF but it’s a completely different kettle of fish with Richard Allen; if that was the only evidence against Richard Allen no it wouldn’t have been used in court because there would have been no charges against him...

AC: Yeah, he wouldn’t have been charged.

KG: …but now we have a situation where the bunch of other evidence against Richard Allen, if this other evidence also existed, maybe it would be brought in maybe it wouldn’t, but it’s all speculative and by the way, Lt Holeman is a gifted investigator but he’s not the prosecutor; that’s a decision the prosecutor would make.

AC: Did you write down Judge Gull’s quote on this?

KG: She made a comment about how…

AC: …’Jerry Holeman stays in his lane, you can’t bring McLeland up here and ask him why he didn’t charge EF, so you’re not going to do that with Holeman, it’s not Holeman’s decision, he’s staying in his lane’…

KG: …And Baldwin started talking about how he believed there was evidence against these other people worthy of bringing charges against them and…

AC: …She said ‘you misunderstand me Mr Baldwin, there’s no nexus’.

KG: Yeah, she said ‘we’ve had this discussion a thousand times’.


---

Lawyer Lee -

LL: He [Andrew Baldwin] wanted to ask a series of questions of Lt Holmes [Holeman] that related to EF. EF had according to his sisters confessed to them, told them ‘yes I actually did this’ and then when the police talked to him he didn’t confess in the true sense of the term but what he did say is ‘what if my spit were found on one of the girls, would that evidence, I forgot the exact language, but would that evidence be used against me, if you found my spit on one of the girls?’. And the questions that Baldwin wanted to ask were ‘if Richard Allen told the police ‘if my spit is found on a girl would that evidence be used against me at trial?’ then that would definitely be used against him at trial. So why can’t we present that evidence about what EF said?

Also, if Richard Allen had done social media posts like EF did, of girls and murders, would that be used in a trial against Richard Allen?’ And I haven’t actually seen, I don’t know exactly what the EF Facebook posts are, so I’m just sort of extrapolating from things that people have said. But I know he was copying some posts by Brad Holder and those, the defense thinks, relate back to Odinism. All of that’s out. Judge has ruled all the third-party culprits, the Odinism out, all out. ‘So if there were a big crime scene photo on Richard Allen’s computer with human girls with sticks on them, would it be used against Richard Allen?’.

And the answer to all these is very, very much yes, I mean the evidence is very limited against Richard Allen. And the confessions, frankly, are the biggest evidence against him. That is the number one thing right now.

“No evidence matching any of these people to the crime”, the Judge said (laughs), ironically, then saying “there’s no evidence matching any of these people to the crime, there’s no nexus, like for example there’s no DNA”. Ironic, because of course there’s not any DNA of Richard Allen either. No fingerprints, no DNA of Richard Allen at the scene, so the fact that there isn’t DNA or no fingerprints linking anyone else to the scene, if that’s the rule then you have to question whether Richard Allen has a significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I am sure that that is exactly what they will argue on appeal, if they lose, if the jury convicts Richard Allen.

timestamp 1.43.57

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fifteen: Allen's Family Speaks

We discuss the fifteenth day of Richard Allen's trial. We heard from Allen's sister Jamie Jones and daughter Brittany Zapanta, as well as testimony from Brad...

murdersheetpodcast.com

timestamp 1.27.49

Notice how much LL reported on the prosecution's submissions? Nothing at all.
Notice how much LL interjected of her own opinions, and whether those opinions were neutral or weighted towards the defense or the prosecution? It was all weighted towards the defense case.
Notice how much LL reported about the Judge's remarks and basis for her ruling? Minimal. Nothing about not being able to put the prosecutor on the stand to ask him about the charging decisions.

I think LL was wrong to say the answers were very much yes, the prosecution would have used certain evidence against Richard Allen, when the prosecution's actual submission which LL didn't report, was we're not going to speculate on that and we wouldn't have charged RA either if that was the only evidence we had against him. I think she was wrong to opine the evidence against Richard Allen was very limited, and that the confessions were the biggest piece of evidence, and that you have to question whether Richard Allen had significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I think she's wrong, as a reporter, not to report on both sides of a case, and with impartiality. It's fine if she wants to say she's biased and has an opinion, but not to hold out as reporting back to us exactly what transpired because of the trial being shrouded in secrecy.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The words "negligent attorneys" has been tossed around a lot. If anyone finds where these two attorneys have been found guilty of negligence and/or broke the rules of professional misconduct, please post the findings.

This link shows both attorneys are active and in good standing:

https://courtapps.in.gov/rollofattorneys

Just talking for myself here….I don’t really care what some official lawyer oversight organization has to say about Baldwin and Rozzi.
I know negligence and incompetence when I see it as easily as I could spot the lies and half truths those two deliberately spread prior to the trial.
Once they got to the trial they proved themselves to be astonishingly ill prepared and very very bad at lawyering.
They did absolutely nothing to help their client. They never requested any psychological evaluation among other things. They delayed the trial with ridiculous motions. So much cr#p from them. Leaked crime scene photos, ignoring gag orders, so much, too much.
If the State of Indiana gives their stamp of approval for them, well, watch out citizens of Indiana.

 

[somequestions]

All JMO. Neither route is an easy call, as both have potential issues or risks.

The something scaring him was probably SC passing by. If he hid & waited he may have seen her come right back & ran to wherever he eventually went.

The northern fields would be potentially muddy & out in the open (larger, more wide open fields than the southern field) with a wooded backdrop further away (off the map to the N there is another tree line).

The southern fields are the fastest route to cover (tree line) but there is the Mears entrance to the trails & pinch point of the trails of which to be concerned. Further west are more open yards after HH. If there is a deep ditch along that bend, he possibly could have avoided the HH camera but that would make him quite lucky to avoid being seen by anyone else, including SC who was passing through multiple times.

I vote north. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve driven by open fields & not given it a thought to scan across them while driving. I could see that stretch being busier than one may think for a county road - access to the trails & an exit at SR25 as well. Main St. also comes from downtown Delphi near the SR25 exit.

Google Maps image with small red dot where CPS parking lot was & green dot at SR25 exit at Main Street. 300N loops around & ends SW of the green dot (Old SR25).
View attachment 548176

I have no idea how Richard Allen got back to his car after the crime, but it is interesting to discuss. I agree going into the fields around Mears property and Hoosier Harvest store would probably be the better option if so many people had already gathered at the Mears entrance around 4 pm in the start to their search for Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

It is all sort of strange because even when Richard Allen was walking back to his car at the old CPS building, at that time no one knew that Abby and Libby had been murdered. From the video I have seen it seems like such a long detour to go walking into the fields behind Mears farm and the Hoosier Harvest store to avoid being seen by any more vehicles.

Once Richard Allen goes behind the Hoosier Harvest store, I think he would have to return to 300 N because the train is blocking his way. Then he would continue his walk along 300 N back to his car. Maybe those train cars were not there in February 2017? If that was the case, then he could have kept walking in the fields in a straight line back to his car without getting back on to 300 N.

 

[INfisherman]

The allegations have made it through the court and the motions have been ruled on. One has to sort through 32 pages to understand the outcome (which I don't). If LL spelled it out, I'll take her word for it.

Economan et al v. Cockrell et al, No. 1:2020cv00032 - Document 225 (N.D. Ind. 2024)

Economan et al v. Cockrell et al, No. 1:2020cv00032 - Document 225 (N.D. Ind. 2024) case opinion from the Northern District of Indiana US Federal District Court

law.justia.com

Great. I won’t for the simple fact that every single member of the P is still in good standing. Surely if the defense team’s standing is fine by you, the P’s is as well, regardless of what LL reports?

What LL chooses to point out must not have been overly important to the RA trial, similar to the prior situation with the defense team (had no bearing in the actual murder trial, was decided beforehand) which I’ll guess wasn’t mentioned by her. That’s a classic example of biased reporting if she didn’t. I don’t watch lawtubers for that very reason - tendency to lean & not be transparent & in turn may be responsible for much of the unnecessary debating & just stirs the pot & causes division.

NM would have been quite the fool for bringing Luttrull aboard with any serious pending outcomes against him. Surely if it’s such a major allegation or even any sort of resulting charge against Luttrull, it will be a major point for RA’s impending appeal. If not, well, I guess it’s just LL talking & stirring the pot…..again. I mean, that was all posted by her during the trial a month ago & MSM doesn’t seem to have latched onto any of it that I’ve seen. <shrugs>

JMO

 

[Boxer]

I agree, you cannot put forth any theory or talk about any person. You cannot say bigfoot did it. But you should be able to talk about KK and RL and the cult theory since all those were investigated by LE. I do not like the cult theory at all(my opinion), but I think if it is something him or his attorneys want to discuss as his defense, he should be able to do so.

Why, they don't have evidence of other suspects' involvement.

 

[Megnut]

RA's 6th Amendment Rights afforded him an Attorney if he could not afford one on his own. When he decided they were too expensive after he was arrested and said he would pay for his own legal representation at arraignment, he wrote a letter to the Court throwing himself on their mercy (his words) and asking for a Court Appointed Defense Attorney.

RA was entitled to a competent and vigorous defense from an Attorney ordered by the Court, not a lawyer of his own choosing. Judge Gull appointed Rozzi and Baldwin.

JMO

Yes. And IMO, Gull should have removed them after the SCION ruling, but absolutely and unequivocally by the letter. Her mistake IMO -- supported by the SCION response -- was in attempting to give R&B the professional courtesy to resign prior to firing. She WAS prepared to have a hearing. (I ALWAYS imagined hearings being something that requires scheduling but learned recently, while following the Boone trial, that judge's can conduct immediate hearings!) R & B did not ask for that hearing, withdrew. Then filed objection with SCION.

IMO had Gull conducted the hearing, R & B would have been replaced. And should have been. I think SCION gave her a nod to do so ...

It was at this same time IMO that Richard Allen was asking his wife if he should trust R & B. The very question suggests he doesn't... Likely they were asking/telling him to tell Gull he wanted them to remain on his case. Did they pressure him? Threaten him that, without them, he might have to hire his own attorneyS? Did they neglect to tell him 1) he'd get new Court appointed attorneys at no cost and 2) they'd represent him pto bono if it came to that? We know what they represented to the Court; I'm curious about what they presented to Richard Allen.

Regardless, Richard Allen told the Court he wanted to keep his illustrious attorneys and, IMO gunshy, Gull accepted that and re-appointing them without pursuing a hearing to remove them properly. At least once she colliquied Richard Allen to make sure it was his decision. She plugged the leak -- if you keep them, you do so at your own risk, you cannot later claim ineffectual counsel.

Richard Allen deserved a rigorous defense, by virtue of his birth. IMO he deserved counsel who would conduct themselves ethically.

IMO R & B conspired to try the case in the public theatre, using Frank's motions to circumvent the gag order and leak outrageous claims to the public. Systemic leaks. The CS photos, the Frank's motions and youtube/podcast creators, maintaining loose relationships with fellow lawyers who functions by day as defense team members and not, by night, conveniently never drawn into the Defense with signed agreements to honor the gag rule.

No reason for drawing the trial out a whole extra year. Richard Allen should have been advised of his rights as well as his odds of conviction, in the event he might want simply to plead guilty to all the charges. There came a time, Richard Allen did want to confess; and in fact, IMO in his early LE interviews, I believe a different interviewer or pair of them could have drawn an authentic confession from him. Regardless, at trial, the Defense could and should have attempted to challenge the investigation, the investigators, the experts, the evidence, as is their job (and really the one thing R & B did shockingly little of). Leave a jury with questions about when Richard Allen arrived/left, question whether eye witnesses (and their phones) were credible, question whether the bullet match-matched, question whether Richard Allen could have left before the elusive BG arrived....

Instead they engaged in gross behavior IMO -- negligent, incompetent -- leading up to trial (like publishing a false finding that Richard Allen was being treated like a POW when, in reality, it was Richard Allen himself who was behaving really badly, falsely claiming Libby's dying handprint was an unsubstantiated rune symbol, etc) and then st trial, calling witnesses that ultimately established they were the likely mystery phone owners, were there in the immediate aftermath of the crime but didn't see Abby or Libby or Richard Allen. And an expert who also ultimately conceded that water/dirt could cause a false port reading. If the Defense was losing during the Prosecution's case in chief, they utterly lost it during theirs.

But these, these are the attorneys Richard Allen swore he wanted to keep.

His conviction should stand.

FWIW, post sentencing, Richard Allen will likely be held in segregation again, for his own safety. He will miss the perks from his previous stay. Like a personal laptop. But the real telling part will be this: I think we've seen the last of him smearing himself with feces and eating it ("I won't be doing that again. ") or taking his head into the concrete walls. "I'm not crazy, I'm just pretending I am." There's no reason for him now to look crazy. Until or unless he's involved in violence in house, he'll fade into the sea of forgotten criminal, replaced by the sad stream of new criminals committing new crimes.

We will forever remember Abby and Libby, two little girls.

JMO

 

[INfisherman]

I have no idea how Richard Allen got back to his car after the crime, but it is interesting to discuss. I agree going into the fields around Mears property and Hoosier Harvest store would probably be the better option if so many people had already gathered at the Mears entrance around 4 pm in the start to their search for Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

It is all sort of strange because even when Richard Allen was walking back to his car at the old CPS building, at that time no one knew that Abby and Libby had been murdered. From the video I have seen it seems like such a long detour to go walking into the fields behind Mears farm and the Hoosier Harvest store to avoid being seen by any more vehicles.

Once Richard Allen goes behind the Hoosier Harvest store, I think he would have to return to 300 N because the train is blocking his way. Then he would continue his walk along 300 N back to his car. Maybe those train cars were not there in February 2017? If that was the case, then he could have kept walking in the fields in a straight line back to his car without getting back on to 300 N.

I agree with you, the escape intrigues me as well. Refer to screengrab of Google Maps for reference. Red dot is approximate location of RAs car. Blue line is possible approximate escape route (can vary quite a bit) which gets him quite close to his car. The large green mark represents the busy area - more on that later.

Here’s the way I look at this topic. RA would kill 2 girls to get away with his plan to SA them, by his words to Dr. Wala. He was so afraid of getting ID’d, he’d kill someone. If that is true, I don’t see him unwilling to do anything else imaginable in order to lessen his chances of being seen during his "escape". Don’t forget, he was exposed to military training in the NG so that should count for something in circumnavigating certain obstacles like long walks, less than ideal terrain, etc. Train cars would be dealt with by climbing between the hitch points or crawling under them, if even present. Hell, maybe he walked around the SW end of it, if even there & if even at the extreme SW end - it’s possible it could have been more NE than shown on satellite images.

The train area due west of HH looks like a grain elevator/storage facility used for loading grain onto rail cars. I could see him getting through the tree line bordering the rail area as cover to get as far south as needed. The green dot would most likely be the area which is most likely to be busiest or have a greater chance of people around. That SW area behind the buildings should be free of people, for the most part. No one will be mowing in February. I’d use that tree line & train as cover & get to that SW area shielding me from anyone around the grain elevator/storage bin (giant oval to right of green dot, right next to tracks). Once there, it’s a straight shot to the car & no one passing by is going to think much of a single man walking near those buildings on the south end. Just wait for no cars on 300N & go.

 

[Boxer]

I have no idea how Richard Allen got back to his car after the crime, but it is interesting to discuss. I agree going into the fields around Mears property and Hoosier Harvest store would probably be the better option if so many people had already gathered at the Mears entrance around 4 pm in the start to their search for Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

It is all sort of strange because even when Richard Allen was walking back to his car at the old CPS building, at that time no one knew that Abby and Libby had been murdered. From the video I have seen it seems like such a long detour to go walking into the fields behind Mears farm and the Hoosier Harvest store to avoid being seen by any more vehicles.

Once Richard Allen goes behind the Hoosier Harvest store, I think he would have to return to 300 N because the train is blocking his way. Then he would continue his walk along 300 N back to his car. Maybe those train cars were not there in February 2017? If that was the case, then he could have kept walking in the fields in a straight line back to his car without getting back on to 300 N.

He just crossed the tracks.

The car witness saw a group of people standing at the road at the Mears trailhead parking, had he walked by them across the road they would have engaged him, he avoided the interaction with a cut behind Mears.

 

[TTF14]

RSBM

I wanted to post an example of a comparison between LL's reporting, and the MurderSheet's reporting, of the same matter during trial, when defense asked to make a proffer, on day 15, during the defense case.

I've typed these up myself from the relevant podcasts linked below, and I've used different colors -

- red to highlight reporting on the defense submissions,
- blue for the prosecution's submissions,
- orange for the Judge
- green for podcaster's own opinions.
- black is neutral.

--

MurderSheet -


KG: But Andrew Baldwin wasn’t done yet. As you all may or may not remember there was this anecdote where EF er…

AC: …asked Kevin Murphy, so he gave his saliva to Kevin Murphy, right?

KG: Yes.

AC: Then he asked Kevin Murphy ‘if my spit ended up on the girls and I had a good reason for it would I be in trouble?’

KG: And so Andrew Baldwin said ‘Judge, I’ve a really cool idea. Why don’t I get Jerry Holeman who was one of the lead investigators on this case, I’ll get him on the stand, and I’ll say “Holeman, if Richard Allen made that comment about spit, would you be using that as evidence in this case?”’ and he said ‘after that, I may ask “if some of the evidence against Brad Holder and the others”, I may say “if that evidence existed against Richard Allen, would you, Jerry Holeman, the investigator, use that as evidence against Richard Allen?”. And McLeland, I think, symbolically must have slapped his forehead, he didn’t do that but I kind of felt that, he said ‘the evidence against EF was not enough to charge EF, like this spit thing, that’s not enough to charge him’.

AC: Someone saying some weird disturbing stuff is not enough and also don’t forget he brought in Brad Holder’s stick picture and the [inaudible]…

KG: …Yeah, all that stuff, he said ‘this evidence was not enough to bring charges against EF but it’s a completely different kettle of fish with Richard Allen; if that was the only evidence against Richard Allen no it wouldn’t have been used in court because there would have been no charges against him...

AC: Yeah, he wouldn’t have been charged.

KG: …but now we have a situation where the bunch of other evidence against Richard Allen, if this other evidence also existed, maybe it would be brought in maybe it wouldn’t, but it’s all speculative and by the way, Lt Holeman is a gifted investigator but he’s not the prosecutor; that’s a decision the prosecutor would make.

AC: Did you write down Judge Gull’s quote on this?

KG: She made a comment about how…

AC: …’Jerry Holeman stays in his lane, you can’t bring McLeland up here and ask him why he didn’t charge EF, so you’re not going to do that with Holeman, it’s not Holeman’s decision, he’s staying in his lane’…

KG: …And Baldwin started talking about how he believed there was evidence against these other people worthy of bringing charges against them and…

AC: …She said ‘you misunderstand me Mr Baldwin, there’s no nexus’.

KG: Yeah, she said ‘we’ve had this discussion a thousand times’.


---

Lawyer Lee -

LL: He [Andrew Baldwin] wanted to ask a series of questions of Lt Holmes [Holeman] that related to EF. EF had according to his sisters confessed to them, told them ‘yes I actually did this’ and then when the police talked to him he didn’t confess in the true sense of the term but what he did say is ‘what if my spit were found on one of the girls, would that evidence, I forgot the exact language, but would that evidence be used against me, if you found my spit on one of the girls?’. And the questions that Baldwin wanted to ask were ‘if Richard Allen told the police ‘if my spit is found on a girl would that evidence be used against me at trial?’ then that would definitely be used against him at trial. So why can’t we present that evidence about what EF said?

Also, if Richard Allen had done social media posts like EF did, of girls and murders, would that be used in a trial against Richard Allen?’ And I haven’t actually seen, I don’t know exactly what the EF Facebook posts are, so I’m just sort of extrapolating from things that people have said. But I know he was copying some posts by Brad Holder and those, the defense thinks, relate back to Odinism. All of that’s out. Judge has ruled all the third-party culprits, the Odinism out, all out. ‘So if there were a big crime scene photo on Richard Allen’s computer with human girls with sticks on them, would it be used against Richard Allen?’.

And the answer to all these is very, very much yes, I mean the evidence is very limited against Richard Allen. And the confessions, frankly, are the biggest evidence against him. That is the number one thing right now.

“No evidence matching any of these people to the crime”, the Judge said (laughs), ironically, then saying “there’s no evidence matching any of these people to the crime, there’s no nexus, like for example there’s no DNA”. Ironic, because of course there’s not any DNA of Richard Allen either. No fingerprints, no DNA of Richard Allen at the scene, so the fact that there isn’t DNA or no fingerprints linking anyone else to the scene, if that’s the rule then you have to question whether Richard Allen has a significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I am sure that that is exactly what they will argue on appeal, if they lose, if the jury convicts Richard Allen.

timestamp 1.43.57

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fifteen: Allen's Family Speaks

We discuss the fifteenth day of Richard Allen's trial. We heard from Allen's sister Jamie Jones and daughter Brittany Zapanta, as well as testimony from Brad...

murdersheetpodcast.com

timestamp 1.27.49

Notice how much LL reported on the prosecution's submissions? Nothing at all.
Notice how much LL interjected of her own opinions, and whether those opinions were neutral or weighted towards the defense or the prosecution? It was all weighted towards the defense case.
Notice how much LL reported about the Judge's remarks and basis for her ruling? Minimal. Nothing about not being able to put the prosecutor on the stand to ask him about the charging decisions.

I think LL was wrong to say the answers were very much yes, the prosecution would have used certain evidence against Richard Allen, when the prosecution's actual submission which LL didn't report, was we're not going to speculate on that and we wouldn't have charged RA either if that was the only evidence we had against him. I think she was wrong to opine the evidence against Richard Allen was very limited, and that the confessions were the biggest piece of evidence, and that you have to question whether Richard Allen had significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I think she's wrong, as a reporter, not to report on both sides of a case, and with impartiality. It's fine if she wants to say she's biased and has an opinion, but not to hold out as reporting back to us exactly what transpired because of the trial being shrouded in secrecy.

JMO

I appreciate the effort you went through to do this. I won't read it, personally. The Murder Sheet podcasters are far from unbiased in their reporting, in my opinion. Lawyer Lee is the most unbiased out of everyone reporting on this case, in my opinion. I'll stick with her.

As always, JMO.

 

[Boxer]

The train tracks across 300 fron the CPS lot, as well as the back of Mears got a lot of forenic attention.

 

[Megnut]

1. Getting back TO his car might have been a challenge for Richard Allen. We don't know what landmarks, if any, he used to work his way from the CS to his parking spot.

2. I don't think Richard Allen cares about property owners (except for wanting to avoid them at all cost). IMO it's nonsense about the Mears' lot -- he said it to explain why he dusky park where everyone else did. Trying to make it look like he was being conscientious. When the TRUTH was he didn't want his car to be seen at all.

3. I haven't ruled out walking home. Being seen by SC might have spooked him. If he walked home, it would further support no biological evidence in his car. I don't think we know what hours of HH cctv LE viewed but for me it doesn't seem impossible for Richard Allen to have walked him, returned later, even after dark for his car. Had he encountered searchers, he could have claimed to be one of them.

4. Richard Allen got lucky, choosing an outdoor arena for his sick fantasy (whatever it was going to be), aided in a lack of recoverable DNA and insulated him.away from public CCTV, which other cities and other parts might have in abundance. Crazy to think that, in all of that park, there was only one functioning CCTV camera. Libby's phone.

And it captured the crime in real time.

Without it, Richard Allen was nearly invisible.

Libby brought him into remarkable focus.

The right man was rightfully convicted.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

After they leaked crime scene photos the judge tried to get him better lawyers.

Then Leeman argued in court on behalf of RA to keep B&R, using the letter RA wrote as confirmation that he understood what he wanted. And he got it.

Sanchez also questioned whether the court truthfully knew what exactly it was Allen wanted since his desires to keep Rozzi and Baldwin were presented to the court “second hand.” She questions Allen’s competence in understanding and making such an impactful decision of waiving away the concern of ineffectiveness and negligence brought forward by Gull about his counsel.

Leeman rebutted this, however, by pointing to a letter sent by Allen to the court where he argued to keep Rozzi and Baldwin as his counsel despite the evidence leak.

Indiana Supreme Court reinstates Richard Allens original attorneys; judge remains on case

Full videos of Thursday’s hearing are included at the end of the story. INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana Supreme Court ordered that Richard Allen’s original defense team be reinstated on the …

fox59.com

 

[susane7]

RSBM

I wanted to post an example of a comparison between LL's reporting, and the MurderSheet's reporting, of the same matter during trial, when defense asked to make a proffer, on day 15, during the defense case.

I've typed these up myself from the relevant podcasts linked below, and I've used different colors -

- red to highlight reporting on the defense submissions,
- blue for the prosecution's submissions,
- orange for the Judge
- green for podcaster's own opinions.
- black is neutral.

--

MurderSheet -


KG: But Andrew Baldwin wasn’t done yet. As you all may or may not remember there was this anecdote where EF er…

AC: …asked Kevin Murphy, so he gave his saliva to Kevin Murphy, right?

KG: Yes.

AC: Then he asked Kevin Murphy ‘if my spit ended up on the girls and I had a good reason for it would I be in trouble?’

KG: And so Andrew Baldwin said ‘Judge, I’ve a really cool idea. Why don’t I get Jerry Holeman who was one of the lead investigators on this case, I’ll get him on the stand, and I’ll say “Holeman, if Richard Allen made that comment about spit, would you be using that as evidence in this case?”’ and he said ‘after that, I may ask “if some of the evidence against Brad Holder and the others”, I may say “if that evidence existed against Richard Allen, would you, Jerry Holeman, the investigator, use that as evidence against Richard Allen?”. And McLeland, I think, symbolically must have slapped his forehead, he didn’t do that but I kind of felt that, he said ‘the evidence against EF was not enough to charge EF, like this spit thing, that’s not enough to charge him’.

AC: Someone saying some weird disturbing stuff is not enough and also don’t forget he brought in Brad Holder’s stick picture and the [inaudible]…

KG: …Yeah, all that stuff, he said ‘this evidence was not enough to bring charges against EF but it’s a completely different kettle of fish with Richard Allen; if that was the only evidence against Richard Allen no it wouldn’t have been used in court because there would have been no charges against him...

AC: Yeah, he wouldn’t have been charged.

KG: …but now we have a situation where the bunch of other evidence against Richard Allen, if this other evidence also existed, maybe it would be brought in maybe it wouldn’t, but it’s all speculative and by the way, Lt Holeman is a gifted investigator but he’s not the prosecutor; that’s a decision the prosecutor would make.

AC: Did you write down Judge Gull’s quote on this?

KG: She made a comment about how…

AC: …’Jerry Holeman stays in his lane, you can’t bring McLeland up here and ask him why he didn’t charge EF, so you’re not going to do that with Holeman, it’s not Holeman’s decision, he’s staying in his lane’…

KG: …And Baldwin started talking about how he believed there was evidence against these other people worthy of bringing charges against them and…

AC: …She said ‘you misunderstand me Mr Baldwin, there’s no nexus’.

KG: Yeah, she said ‘we’ve had this discussion a thousand times’.


---

Lawyer Lee -

LL: He [Andrew Baldwin] wanted to ask a series of questions of Lt Holmes [Holeman] that related to EF. EF had according to his sisters confessed to them, told them ‘yes I actually did this’ and then when the police talked to him he didn’t confess in the true sense of the term but what he did say is ‘what if my spit were found on one of the girls, would that evidence, I forgot the exact language, but would that evidence be used against me, if you found my spit on one of the girls?’. And the questions that Baldwin wanted to ask were ‘if Richard Allen told the police ‘if my spit is found on a girl would that evidence be used against me at trial?’ then that would definitely be used against him at trial. So why can’t we present that evidence about what EF said?

Also, if Richard Allen had done social media posts like EF did, of girls and murders, would that be used in a trial against Richard Allen?’ And I haven’t actually seen, I don’t know exactly what the EF Facebook posts are, so I’m just sort of extrapolating from things that people have said. But I know he was copying some posts by Brad Holder and those, the defense thinks, relate back to Odinism. All of that’s out. Judge has ruled all the third-party culprits, the Odinism out, all out. ‘So if there were a big crime scene photo on Richard Allen’s computer with human girls with sticks on them, would it be used against Richard Allen?’.

And the answer to all these is very, very much yes, I mean the evidence is very limited against Richard Allen. And the confessions, frankly, are the biggest evidence against him. That is the number one thing right now.

“No evidence matching any of these people to the crime”, the Judge said (laughs), ironically, then saying “there’s no evidence matching any of these people to the crime, there’s no nexus, like for example there’s no DNA”. Ironic, because of course there’s not any DNA of Richard Allen either. No fingerprints, no DNA of Richard Allen at the scene, so the fact that there isn’t DNA or no fingerprints linking anyone else to the scene, if that’s the rule then you have to question whether Richard Allen has a significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I am sure that that is exactly what they will argue on appeal, if they lose, if the jury convicts Richard Allen.

timestamp 1.43.57

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fifteen: Allen's Family Speaks

We discuss the fifteenth day of Richard Allen's trial. We heard from Allen's sister Jamie Jones and daughter Brittany Zapanta, as well as testimony from Brad...

murdersheetpodcast.com

timestamp 1.27.49

Notice how much LL reported on the prosecution's submissions? Nothing at all.
Notice how much LL interjected of her own opinions, and whether those opinions were neutral or weighted towards the defense or the prosecution? It was all weighted towards the defense case.
Notice how much LL reported about the Judge's remarks and basis for her ruling? Minimal. Nothing about not being able to put the prosecutor on the stand to ask him about the charging decisions.

I think LL was wrong to say the answers were very much yes, the prosecution would have used certain evidence against Richard Allen, when the prosecution's actual submission which LL didn't report, was we're not going to speculate on that and we wouldn't have charged RA either if that was the only evidence we had against him. I think she was wrong to opine the evidence against Richard Allen was very limited, and that the confessions were the biggest piece of evidence, and that you have to question whether Richard Allen had significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I think she's wrong, as a reporter, not to report on both sides of a case, and with impartiality. It's fine if she wants to say she's biased and has an opinion, but not to hold out as reporting back to us exactly what transpired because of the trial being shrouded in secrecy.

JMO

Thank you. Lawyer Lee seems nice but she is absolutely biased IMO. Thank god for Lauren from Hidden True Crime, she is unbiased and reported both sides.

 

[INfisherman]

I appreciate the effort you went through to do this. I won't read it, personally. The Murder Sheet podcasters are far from unbiased in their reporting, in my opinion. Lawyer Lee is the most unbiased out of everyone reporting on this case, in my opinion. I'll stick with her.

As always, JMO.

Here, I copy/pasted just the LL portion & bolded each & every area where she addressed the prosecution’s submissions. None of the Murder Sheet alleged biasedness will be an issue now.

<copy/paste start>
Lawyer Lee -

LL: He [Andrew Baldwin] wanted to ask a series of questions of Lt Holmes [Holeman] that related to EF. EF had according to his sisters confessed to them, told them ‘yes I actually did this’ and then when the police talked to him he didn’t confess in the true sense of the term but what he did say is ‘what if my spit were found on one of the girls, would that evidence, I forgot the exact language, but would that evidence be used against me, if you found my spit on one of the girls?’. And the questions that Baldwin wanted to ask were ‘if Richard Allen told the police ‘if my spit is found on a girl would that evidence be used against me at trial?’ then that would definitely be used against him at trial. So why can’t we present that evidence about what EF said?

Also, if Richard Allen had done social media posts like EF did, of girls and murders, would that be used in a trial against Richard Allen?’ And I haven’t actually seen, I don’t know exactly what the EF Facebook posts are, so I’m just sort of extrapolating from things that people have said. But I know he was copying some posts by Brad Holder and those, the defense thinks, relate back to Odinism. All of that’s out. Judge has ruled all the third-party culprits, the Odinism out, all out. ‘So if there were a big crime scene photo on Richard Allen’s computer with human girls with sticks on them, would it be used against Richard Allen?’.

And the answer to all these is very, very much yes, I mean the evidence is very limited against Richard Allen. And the confessions, frankly, are the biggest evidence against him. That is the number one thing right now.

“No evidence matching any of these people to the crime”, the Judge said (laughs), ironically, then saying “there’s no evidence matching any of these people to the crime, there’s no nexus, like for example there’s no DNA”. Ironic, because of course there’s not any DNA of Richard Allen either. No fingerprints, no DNA of Richard Allen at the scene, so the fact that there isn’t DNA or no fingerprints linking anyone else to the scene, if that’s the rule then you have to question whether Richard Allen has a significant nexus to be prosecuted. And I am sure that that is exactly what they will argue on appeal, if they lose, if the jury convicts Richard Allen.
<copy/paste end>

Hope this is more bearable now.

 

[INfisherman]

I agree, you cannot put forth any theory or talk about any person. You cannot say bigfoot did it. But you should be able to talk about KK and RL and the cult theory since all those were investigated by LE. I do not like the cult theory at all(my opinion), but I think if it is something him or his attorneys want to discuss as his defense, he should be able to do so.

Why, they don't have evidence of other suspects' involvement.

@somequestions

They might as well have said Bigfoot did it for the reason @Boxer states. Regardless of who LE investigates, the defense can’t take that information & spin a potentially confusing story to the jury, henpecking certain things to paint their client as innocent. Those people, each & every one of them, were all cleared by LE from being involved in the murders. The D thought they could take all that investigation & redact certain facts & twist that into what looked like the truth but wasn’t. The judge saw that & wouldn’t allow it in front of the jury. She did allow it for the record so it’s there for the taking for his appeal, if it doesn’t get laughed out of there as well, which it more than likely will.

ETA MOO spelling the/them

 

[INfisherman]

I think we've seen the last of him smearing himself with feces and eating it ("I won't be doing that again. ")

RSBM

Hey now, let’s not get ahead of ourselves quite yet. There’s still a potential appeal. I’m certain I know which way @m00c0w & I will be rooting. There’s always the possibility of more sporking events on the table, too (sporting/sporking, see what I did there). It’s looking much better than I initially thought. Not such a sad day after all I suppose. Had me really concerned for a minute there. Whew.

MOO

 

[somequestions]

The train tracks across 300 fron the CPS lot, as well as the back of Mears got a lot of forenic attention.

Did they check for footprints in the fields behind Mears farm and the Hoosier Harvest store? Since the killer should have had wet shoes, I thought maybe he might have left a track leading back to the old CPS parking lot.

 

[somequestions]

There is another question I had about this case.

If SC saw Richard Allen at 3:57pm walking on 300 N by the cemetery and it takes 5-10 minutes to walk from the crime scene to the cemetery, this means Richard Allen left the crime scene at around 3:47pm.

According to his confession, he stayed with the bodies to make sure they were dead. If Liberty German's father started calling at 3:15pm, wouldn't the phone have been ringing for half an hour whenever someone called, texted, or emailed to try and get in contact with her? If the phone was found underneath Abigail Williams body, does that mean it could not be heard(or the phone was on vibrate only and the sound was off for texts, emails, and phone calls)?

 

[TallCoolOne]

Silenced would be my guess.