GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #219

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I think it was in Liberty German's bridge guy video the nervousness of Abigail Williams asking if he was behind her. We will never know if the girls noticed bridge guy Richard Allen before platform 6 as that is all the video shows.

There is one fact about this case that is indisputable: Abigail Williams and Liberty German passed the bridge guy either on the bridge or on the trail going in the opposite direction and the bridge guy came back.
But BG/RA was behind Abby at that initial moment, before she nervously scooted away.

According to witness BB, she left BG/RA on the bridge's first platform and while walking back on the trail soon encountered the girls going to the bridge.

If BG/RA was still ON the bridge those girls wouldn't have tried to cross, IMO, because that bridge is too small and rickety for passing people, especially with it being Abby's first time crossing it.

BG/RA was either already off (maybe starting to stalk BB as a victim to attack or lurking in the woods) or he made his way off the bridge and pretended to be leaving, to let the girls on to cross. There's only a couple logical options really.

Then when they got far enough along and nobody else was approaching, he followed them knowing they wouldn't start back over, for the same reasons I stated above. They were essentially trapped if they were thinking the only way to go was back over the bridge. Libby, IMO, said as much. It's chilling and heartbreaking.
AJMO
 
I have been getting caught up and I am shocked that there is still a debate about the identity of the murderer.

There is, to my mind, absolutely not a single doubt that Richard Allen coldly and callously murdered two little girls on February 13, 2017.

The Defense continues to inflict pain on the friends and families of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. They continue to do it and I sincerely don't understand why.

Every time they leak information ( this time the full 43 second video of the abduction) it solidifies the fact that Richard Allen is rightfully convicted and will never be allowed to take another life.

Perspective CAN be tricky sometimes, but to me, it's clear that the man behind Abby is about her height ( 5 foot four inches) and I see a stocky disheveled male that is the same height and build as Richard Allen.

He has confessed to the crimes and he had more than FIVE years to continue living his life. If ONLY Abby and Libby had been granted the same luxury. They would have had five years to to go to school, to become young women and to make their marks in ways that didn't end the in their untimely deaths.

But, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

LISTEN to their voices in that video. They were babies. They should have never had to think that some evil, angry, criminal mind would set out to destroy them.

Abby was kind and gentle and her mother said that all Abby wanted to do was HELP people. The most common quote from her ( Abby) was "How can I help?"

Libby wanted to solve crimes.

Yes, Richard Allen cut 2 beautiful lives short, but he couldn't erase the ideals and intentions these girls were set to accomplish:

Libby caught her killer on video and Abby made sure to keep the evidence safe. That is how Abby completed her final act of help.

And to borrow ( loosely) a something Nick McLeland said in his closing argument
"Girls, you did It "
 
I think it was in Liberty German's bridge guy video the nervousness of Abigail Williams asking if he was behind her. We will never know if the girls noticed bridge guy Richard Allen before platform 6 as that is all the video shows.

There is one fact about this case that is indisputable: Abigail Williams and Liberty German passed the bridge guy either on the bridge or on the trail going in the opposite direction and the bridge guy came back.

I have always thought Richard Allen followed BB with bad intent after she walked back up the trail.
By his own admission, Richard Allen’s purpose of being at the trails that day was to find a female to rape. It was getting later in the afternoon and the number of people at the trail was dropping off. He had to act.
By walking up the trail after BB , Richard Allen could check up the trail to see if people were nearby and if it was clear to accost BB.
As Richard Allen was doing this Libby and Abby came bounding down the trail toward the bridge and he realized he could trap them. Richard Allen chose to go after them. BB was very lucky.
We would most likely have answers to all of these details if Richard Allen’s wife, mother, and unethical lawyers had not prevented him from pleading guilty after he begged to be allowed to do that after confessing to the murders to just about everybody with a pulse in Indiana.
 
For those having a tough time imagining the elevation, this may help.

MHB was about 60 feet over the lowland area. Here is a 3D map taken from Google Earth showing some of the elevations. This is looking from approximately east to west. The bridge is NOT shown correctly, as it’s actually hugging the forest floor over which it spans. The DTH was near the blue X at left end of blue double arrow. Red shading is where sheer drops are located. Green shaded area is the approximate CS area. Yellow shaded area is where elevation changes going uphill towards the graveyard along 300N. White curve is approximate path from DTH to CS area. Once off of MHB & led down off the private road to the lowland area, that’s around 60 feet of a drop (total).

IMG_4282.webp
 
Smart phones are smart but they're not independent thinkers.

We know things.

Things we wish weren't true. But we know them -- and should be able to trust them. Because they are corroborated.

Like when Abby and Libby were at the MBH.

And when RA was. He provided no alibi, no testimony to support being elsewhere.

The girls were abducted by the man who followed them. They were in two locations, one on each side of a creek.

They were forced to undress.

One redressed.

They crossed the creek.

They received fatal injuries at the second location. Bled to death.

What can the smart phone tell us?

Libby was holding it. Video proves that. We see Libby standing in place at the end of the bridge, right up until GDTH. Zero steps, no movement, consistent with the video. IMO Libby made it across by 2:08, the waited.

Once DTH, they were kept in one place. A gun'll do that.

Consistent with being abducted, held against their will, forced to undress. Phone was likely on the ground. In a pocket or shoe. Of course the PHONE doesn't know that. It just noted there's no movement to record.

Then 166'. Not likely in someone's hand who is on a pleasure hike. One naked child and one wearing the clothes of the others, forced across a creek.

Maybe what the phone was trying to make sense of was A CHILD losing her balance, flailing, falling in the creek, righting herself, stumbling again, losing clothes in the process, saving the phone.

The phone would have NO WAY to make sense of that. Rapid, tumultuous motion. Maybe that's how he elevation change git recorded or the 166'.

I haven't found a good elevation map to see how significant a physical difference. We know it was steep, we know they were left in a bit of a basin in a ravine-type hollow, not very visible from above, obscured them from below by an unfinished frame of branches.

Within minutes, both girls had their necks slashed. Chaotic scene. Phone never again moved. Stopped at 2:32. So unless a the phone lay there and then later Abby dutifully returned to be murdered on top of it, Abby was fatally injured where she was found simultaneously with the phone registering its last movement.

There were no Odinists, no sacrificial ritual, no runes, no F, no ritual of two white girls in a very harried messy confusing vignette.

One middle aged, buzzed guy, lurking on the bridge, who didn't finish what he started, panicked, killed them, stood over them to make sure they died all the way, then tried to hide their bodies to make them harder to see (from below), went home and continued to go about his life.

And a smart girl with a smart phone recording 43 seconds of video and another 18 minutes of movement and not movement which told the second part of the story...

Resulting in a conviction and two 65-year sentences.

No mystery, just misery.

JMO
You write beautifully and succinctly. This brought me to tears.
 
If there were plans to meet KAK/Shots that day wouldn’t there be a record on Libby’s phone that confirmed this? And it seems like the plan to go to the trails was more a spur of the moment thing according to Becky Patty.

To me, RA was on the trails looking for opportunity. He lived right there, didn’t need someone to tell him two girls were going to be there. He probably knew it was a spot where females walked alone from being there in the past. I think he stalked BB but saw the girls, walked a way to see if anyone else was around, and then sped it all up to get them down the hill. The girls didn’t need to be meeting someone, Libby was familiar with the trails and they thought it would be fun to go there and take snaps, as did some other teens.

Linking KAK and RA actually makes it feel more complicated to me, but of course it’s a possibility.
Thankyou what you said makes alot of sense... Sorry if I seem ignorant I'm new to this case ...have just been trying to catch up on it
 
Thankyou what you said makes alot of sense... Sorry if I seem ignorant I'm new to this case ...have just been trying to catch up on it
I have to give you a lot of credit! Of all the cases on the site to catch up on, this one’s a doozie, with 219 threads. Ask us anything. Please just be prepared to get umpteen different viewpoints! :)
 
I've admitted I don't understand this at all.
Can you give me actual examples of admissible 3rd party evidence?

Also from your link (how does evidence mislead the jury?):
[snip]
“The Court will not permit the evidence submitted by the defense in support of their arguments regarding third-party perpetrators in the trial of this cause as the probative value of such evidence is greatly outweighed by confusion of the issues and its potential to mislead the jury,” Gull wrote.
RBBM

A bit late to respond, so my apologies.

Using one of the actual people mentioned in the SODDI theory from the defense, had EF’s DNA been found at the CS AND he was also somehow able to be placed in Delphi at the time of the murders, then I feel he alone could have been allowed into the defense’s theory - possibly just one of those 2 scenarios. Unfortunately, it was his question about spit along with hearsay from a relative which was used as the "evidence" against him & that isn’t allowed from my understanding. Please keep in mind I’m not a lawyer.

The probative value of EF’s involvement was seen as less because it would have served as a tool used to confuse the jury - he wasn’t there & his DNA wasn’t found at the CS or didn’t match what was. With all that said, had NM not filed the motion, JG may not have ruled against those individuals mentioned in the motion.

JMO
 
I have always thought Richard Allen followed BB with bad intent after she walked back up the trail.
By his own admission, Richard Allen’s purpose of being at the trails that day was to find a female to rape. It was getting later in the afternoon and the number of people at the trail was dropping off. He had to act.
By walking up the trail after BB , Richard Allen could check up the trail to see if people were nearby and if it was clear to accost BB.
As Richard Allen was doing this Libby and Abby came bounding down the trail toward the bridge and he realized he could trap them. Richard Allen chose to go after them. BB was very lucky.
We would most likely have answers to all of these details if Richard Allen’s wife, mother, and unethical lawyers had not prevented him from pleading guilty after he begged to be allowed to do that after confessing to the murders to just about everybody with a pulse in Indiana.
What a putty that guy is.
 
There could be more involved tho and RA just taking the whole blame because he doesn't want to grass his disgusting friends up..
Seems like they had it planned to me with that groomer talking to her beforehand
If there are others involved, there is zero evidence of that, both in regards to KK & TK but also others mentioned in the defense’s Franks memo (Odinists & RL).

Had KK not tampered with the "misplaced" iPhone after the initial raid on TK’s (his father’s) home & had RA’s cell from 2017 not had been recycled, destroyed or hidden, there might have been a link to others but to this day, nothing.

I feel it very odd that KK took the full brunt of the charges after a raid of his father’s home. No way were all those phones KK’s, particularly the one iPhone which was turned in after the raid & had evidence of tampering (apps uninstalled/reinstalled & data deleted). For a long time I felt KK may have had some sort of involvement but I’ve since felt TK was is a more likely candidate for knowing RA well enough to be involved in CSAM and/or catfishing.

The above doesn’t change that RA was the one there on the bridge that day & also the killer.

JMO
 
If there are others involved, there is zero evidence of that, both in regards to KK & TK but also others mentioned in the defense’s Franks memo (Odinists & RL).

Had KK not tampered with the "misplaced" iPhone after the initial raid on TK’s (his father’s) home & had RA’s cell from 2017 not had been recycled, destroyed or hidden, there might have been a link to others but to this day, nothing.

I feel it very odd that KK took the full brunt of the charges after a raid of his father’s home. No way were all those phones KK’s, particularly the one iPhone which was turned in after the raid & had evidence of tampering (apps uninstalled/reinstalled & data deleted). For a long time I felt KK may have had some sort of involvement but I’ve since felt TK was is a more likely candidate for knowing RA well enough to be involved in CSAM and/or catfishing.

The above doesn’t change that RA was the one there on the bridge that day & also the killer.

JMO
Agree. Its one of the costs of not moving in immediately on the RA DD interview.
 
If there are others involved, there is zero evidence of that, both in regards to KK & TK but also others mentioned in the defense’s Franks memo (Odinists & RL).

Had KK not tampered with the "misplaced" iPhone after the initial raid on TK’s (his father’s) home & had RA’s cell from 2017 not had been recycled, destroyed or hidden, there might have been a link to others but to this day, nothing.

I feel it very odd that KK took the full brunt of the charges after a raid of his father’s home. No way were all those phones KK’s, particularly the one iPhone which was turned in after the raid & had evidence of tampering (apps uninstalled/reinstalled & data deleted). For a long time I felt KK may have had some sort of involvement but I’ve since felt TK was is a more likely candidate for knowing RA well enough to be involved in CSAM and/or catfishing.

The above doesn’t change that RA was the one there on the bridge that day & also the killer.

JMO
What is catfishing.... Excuse my ignorance on this
 
What is catfishing.... Excuse my ignorance on this
Catfishing is pretending to be someone else using a fake online identity. The catfisherman may steal images or information of other people in hopes of attracting their intended victims.

KK was caught doing this to obtain nude images and/or locations of minors using the fake identity named Anthony Shots. It’s been alleged his father, TK, was also using the same account KK created as well as using his own fake identities.

None of this was ever linked directly to the Delphi murders other than some messages being exchanged between the AS account & Libby. LE only knows messages were exchanged between accounts. They do not know who was on each end of the devices. This would have been critical information in showing evidence someone in addition to RA could have been involved at some point IMO.

ETA - no need to ask to be excused for ignorance. We all have to learn somehow & many are happy to help! My friendliest & best advice is to get familiar with searching Google for both terms & news articles or case related information & it’s by no means meant to be a smart-mouthed response. 👍
 
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We know things.

IMO Libby made it across by 2:08, the waited.

Phone never again moved. Stopped at 2:32.

Libby and Abby truly have my heart, along with their family and loved ones. For some reason reading your post this struck out at me.

So Libby was standing off the bridge at 2:08, this is around the time she said "hi". The cell was found under Abby? I'll assume Abby was laying on the ground at 2:32 then.

May their memory live forever.
 
Libby and Abby truly have my heart, along with their family and loved ones. For some reason reading your post this struck out at me.

So Libby was standing off the bridge at 2:08, this is around the time she said "hi". The cell was found under Abby? I'll assume Abby was laying on the ground at 2:32 then.

May their memory live forever.
According to the timestamp of the bridge guy video at 2:13:52, I am assuming that is when the video started? Abby gets off the bridge 16 seconds into the video so she got off the bridge around 2:14:08.

My opinion is that Liberty German was probably still on the bridge or else if she got off the bridge at 2:08 pm she would have had to wait for Abby for 6 minutes to finish crossing the bridge. But there is no documentation about when exactly Liberty German finished crossing the Monon High Bridge as when the bridge guy video starts she is already at the end. It could be 2:08 if she went fast and got very far ahead of Abby and then stopped.

There are many variables, but in order for bridge guy to catch up at the end of the bridge, he has to get on the bridge from the northwest side when the girls get to the halfway point of the bridge and he has to walk 2x as fast while they have to walk at the same speed not increasing or decreasing for bridge guy to catch up to them at the end of the bridge which according to the video it looks like he did.

The 2:07pm picture suggests bridge guy had not yet entered the start of the bridge beyond the three beam gate that used to be there even as Abby and Libby were already at platform 3. My guess is bridge guy entered the start of the bridge on the northwest side shortly after the 2:07pm picture was taken while the girls were walking between platforms 3 and 4 which I assume is the halfway point of the bridge.
 
But BG/RA was behind Abby at that initial moment, before she nervously scooted away.

According to witness BB, she left BG/RA on the bridge's first platform and while walking back on the trail soon encountered the girls going to the bridge.

If BG/RA was still ON the bridge those girls wouldn't have tried to cross, IMO, because that bridge is too small and rickety for passing people, especially with it being Abby's first time crossing it.

BG/RA was either already off (maybe starting to stalk BB as a victim to attack or lurking in the woods) or he made his way off the bridge and pretended to be leaving, to let the girls on to cross. There's only a couple logical options really.

Then when they got far enough along and nobody else was approaching, he followed them knowing they wouldn't start back over, for the same reasons I stated above. They were essentially trapped if they were thinking the only way to go was back over the bridge. Libby, IMO, said as much. It's chilling and heartbreaking.
AJMO
I think Richard Allen got off the bridge and passed the girls as they were on the trail walking to the bridge and delayed coming back after them for some reason. The point was to show that Abby and Libby had to have passed Richard Allen already whether on the bridge or the trail.

I think the trail is more likely due to the 2:07pm picture not showing anyone on platforms looking back towards the northwest. If Richard Allen were still standing on platform 1 when the girls passed him, then I think he would have continued standing on platform 1 as they would be moving away from him and he could observe them.

I understand the probability of him being innocent is very unlikely, but I thought it was worth discussing the movement of bridge guy Richard Allen across the Monon High Bridge and how it might have affected Abigail Williams and Liberty German's movements across it too.
 
For RA descended from out of nowhere to be innocent, he would have had to leave by an unknown route in that brief span between BB's absolute timestamp, fitbit confirmed, when she saw RA on the platform (right where he said he was) and Abby and Libby's appearance on the trail, also timestamped by BB.

Then someone just like him but also somewhere, in order to follow the girls across the bridge.

The Defense tried, with no success, to move the time of death far, far from 2:30 in an attempt to distance the crime from RA, on the bridge.

So that is really the pivotal fact in this case IMO.

If one believes Libby's video and cellphone data, that the phone's movement stopped at 2:32, signaling the final movements of both girls, then they didn't die later that day, didn't get in a car, didn't plug any earphones in, didn't go somewhere else and come back. If we JUST use the cellphone data for movement to try to piece together the girls final movements, IMO it's chilling, it's compelling and it's complete. There's no point in developing fanciful narratives because what is simple, horrible and entirely reasonable is that

they were abducted at 2:13 by a lone man who followed them, trapped them, forced them down the hill, where he firced them to undress. We will never know what he may have made them do, see... but Libby's phone DOES record the moment they were kidnapped, DOES she that Libby was actively stepping until 2:08 after which almost no movement for her, including dropping below the bridge as ordered. No real movement until 20:18, consistent with the the period of SA (young teens forced to strip maked IS SA).

Then a flurry of movement which is consistent with crossing a river and consistent with the location at which their bodies were discovered.

We don't know who had the phone but we know it crossed the river. We can infer the river crossing wasn't altogether smooth (based on clothes that were abandoned there), we do know Abby must have redressed before crossing the river iirc, and we can imagine (as much as we surely don't want to) that the girls were being told what to do, perhaps he ordered them to re-dress before moving to the more secluded location but it wasn't happening fast enough, panicked, not understanding that switching the clothes left one girl without clothes to fit into, if he was ordering both to re-dress. Or they thought he was going to let one of them go so Libby passed her clothes (and the phone) bravely, smartly.

Minutes after crossing the creek, both girls are bleeding out....

Unless one believes the girls somehow left. Without the phone. And came back later to die on top of it. Is there a white of proof to support that? Beyond it being WILDLY incredible. In the history of EVER, has a kidnapper successfully kidnapped a victim, cleared the area, brought them elsewhere, then returned them to the heart of the crime scene, the exact location from which they'd first done been kidnapped? And then been murdered????? THERE????? A kidnapper who brings his victims right back to their phone? In the most likely place searchers will already be searching?

Or a middle aged creep, with some daytime beer in his system, kidnapped two little girls only to realize he had no idea how to handle and orchestrate it, in a public setting no less. Panicked, devolved into chaos -- total disorganization -- culminating in brutal injuries from a quiet boxcutter?

It's disgusting but it's not a mystery.

JMO
 
For RA descended from out of nowhere to be innocent, he would have had to leave by an unknown route in that brief span between BB's absolute timestamp, fitbit confirmed, when she saw RA on the platform (right where he said he was) and Abby and Libby's appearance on the trail, also timestamped by BB.

Then someone just like him but also somewhere, in order to follow the girls across the bridge.

The Defense tried, with no success, to move the time of death far, far from 2:30 in an attempt to distance the crime from RA, on the bridge.

So that is really the pivotal fact in this case IMO.

If one believes Libby's video and cellphone data, that the phone's movement stopped at 2:32, signaling the final movements of both girls, then they didn't die later that day, didn't get in a car, didn't plug any earphones in, didn't go somewhere else and come back. If we JUST use the cellphone data for movement to try to piece together the girls final movements, IMO it's chilling, it's compelling and it's complete. There's no point in developing fanciful narratives because what is simple, horrible and entirely reasonable is that

they were abducted at 2:13 by a lone man who followed them, trapped them, forced them down the hill, where he firced them to undress. We will never know what he may have made them do, see... but Libby's phone DOES record the moment they were kidnapped, DOES she that Libby was actively stepping until 2:08 after which almost no movement for her, including dropping below the bridge as ordered. No real movement until 20:18, consistent with the the period of SA (young teens forced to strip maked IS SA).

Then a flurry of movement which is consistent with crossing a river and consistent with the location at which their bodies were discovered.

We don't know who had the phone but we know it crossed the river. We can infer the river crossing wasn't altogether smooth (based on clothes that were abandoned there), we do know Abby must have redressed before crossing the river iirc, and we can imagine (as much as we surely don't want to) that the girls were being told what to do, perhaps he ordered them to re-dress before moving to the more secluded location but it wasn't happening fast enough, panicked, not understanding that switching the clothes left one girl without clothes to fit into, if he was ordering both to re-dress. Or they thought he was going to let one of them go so Libby passed her clothes (and the phone) bravely, smartly.

Minutes after crossing the creek, both girls are bleeding out....

Unless one believes the girls somehow left. Without the phone. And came back later to die on top of it. Is there a white of proof to support that? Beyond it being WILDLY incredible. In the history of EVER, has a kidnapper successfully kidnapped a victim, cleared the area, brought them elsewhere, then returned them to the heart of the crime scene, the exact location from which they'd first done been kidnapped? And then been murdered????? THERE????? A kidnapper who brings his victims right back to their phone? In the most likely place searchers will already be searching?

Or a middle aged creep, with some daytime beer in his system, kidnapped two little girls only to realize he had no idea how to handle and orchestrate it, in a public setting no less. Panicked, devolved into chaos -- total disorganization -- culminating in brutal injuries from a quiet boxcutter?

It's disgusting but it's not a mystery.

JMO
Was the phone directly underneath them then or was it found elsewhere in the scene like in the bushes or something I am just thinking if she knew they were in uttermost danger which she did ...did she ditch the phone quickly knowing it could be used for evidence because it confuses me he would have left it behind ...seems odd .. especially with those catfishing messages and evidence on it
 
Catfishing is pretending to be someone else using a fake online identity. The catfisherman may steal images or information of other people in hopes of attracting their intended victims.

KK was caught doing this to obtain nude images and/or locations of minors using the fake identity named Anthony Shots. It’s been alleged his father, TK, was also using the same account KK created as well as using his own fake identities.

None of this was ever linked directly to the Delphi murders other than some messages being exchanged between the AS account & Libby. LE only knows messages were exchanged between accounts. They do not know who was on each end of the devices. This would have been critical information in showing evidence someone in addition to RA could have been involved at some point IMO.

ETA - no need to ask to be excused for ignorance. We all have to learn somehow & many are happy to help! My friendliest & best advice is to get familiar with searching Google for both terms & news articles or case related information & it’s by no means meant to be a smart-mouthed response. 👍
Thankyou btw... I was using Google believe me there is just soooo much on this particular case its like getting stuck in minefields I thought once they got RA the bridge guy it was over but no there are so many other topics linking in other people to it... You know what they say there is no smoke without fire.
 
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